trying to cut a road in, but.....

[Swawpy]

Anybody have any techniques/tips for cutting a road sidehill with a straight blade? No angle, no tilt, just a straight blade on a jd420.

Thanks.

[roadbuilder]

Hey Swawpy.
The biggest item in a sidehill road is how steep is the sidehill. How wide does the road need to be? Driveway for motorhomes, log trucks or just a catroad you can get a fourwheel drive up? The steeper the ground, the less material you can sidecast(push out/over the side to create a shoulder. If you push dirt out on a steep sidslope,say over 30%, and the dirt is caught by brush or logs you don't plan to remove, as the wood fiber rots,the shoulder will develop cracks and our Pacific Northwest rain s will send that shoulder right down the hill.
Anyway to answer your question, you create your own tilt by kicking dirt to where your outside trak will be. Sidehill const. with a dozer consists of alot of cornering out the dirt ( I'm saying "dirt" to include any diggable material by a dozer). This is hard on your steering clutches. The easiest S.H. const. for a dozer is downhill. If grade(steepness of the drivable surface) isn't an issue, the final location of your road may not be as critical. Pick a route that naturally fits your final grade, then start cutting from as high on the cut slope as you can. If this is to be a driveway or a road that you don't want to have the bank sliding in on, try to control your cut bank. Rule of thumb is a 3/4:1 cut slope can be fairly stable. Measure this by standing where the ditch and cutbank meet, (even if you arn't doing a ditch), facing parallel with the road, hold out your arm straight out and you fingers will just about or will touch the bank.
Make sure you keep gaining width for a working surface. As long as the slope below the road isn't steeper than your cut bank, you should gain width as you cut down in depth. IMPORTANT! You need to keep compacting your sidecast material and keep your outside track from sinking. It is a helpless feeling to have the ground give way or even settle on the edge of a road. If you have stumps in the ground try to keep to the inside of them so you can be working on stable ground.Remember where they are at so if dirt covers them, you don't get caught with your blade. Try to get your "pioneer road" all the way to the end if you can. This can allow you to drift material in the steep sections where you can't sidecast much to benches or points(such as ends of ridges) that can support more weight. This can also help straighten out your shoving sometimes.
Uphill building with a dozer is hard on you machine, so take your time. When I build a permanent road, I pioneer with an excavator, removing all brush, log and stumps as I go. Some people shove in with a dozer then do clean-up with an excavator. If you can rent an excavator an have some experience or are a quick learner this would be best. Steep ground is not the best classroom. Ive had to crutch my way out of some nasty situations and I've been building logging roads since 1983.Anyone can screw up. Lots of excavators have tipped over. If your ground is really steep have someone around as a witness. Always wear a seatbelt in an exc. Be carefull. I hope your sidehill is in a firly steep pasture.

[Swawpy]

Thanks a bunch!! Not much travel other than loaded pick-up, and adequate to pull a boat behind. Probably 30 degree slope and mainly sandy, loam type soil- (central Oregon). You make it sound so easy... but just isnt working out for me. Ill keep trying.

Thanks

[roadbuilder]

Hey there. Takes a little getting used to alright. If you want to cut to the left, push up a pile for your right track to backup on. Probably about as long as your track. This should allow your left corner to contact ground first. Shove until your right track comes off its ramp.Eventually you should be sitting at a slight angle. Corner this material towards road shoulder.Keep the outside higher than the "ditch" side will allow for more tilt of machine. Sometimes you may need to turn around and shove the other direction. Walking the dozer on the berm helps to compact the sidecast. then after your done with cutting to grade, you can shove off berm or leave it to keep you pickup in the trough if its slick. Here in the coast range troughs just hold water and lead to ruts, waterbars and other problems, but you might not slide off the road

[Swawpy]

Thanks again- sure would be nice to find an angle blade with tilt!!! Would I work downhill to build up an area for the low track? I see what you mean, probably just takes a little more patience and alot more finesse. Im amazed what this little ol 420 can push, she deserves a better operator is all!

[roadbuilder]

Swawpy. I'm going to assume by your question that you are at the top of the hill . If you need dirt to start your pile and by pushing downhill you mean going perpendiclular to the road direction, yes that would work. If you are attempting to take off an existing sidehill road and there are no trees or other obstacles and cutting into the old road isn't an option you probably need to do this. If you need to preserve the old road, you will need to generate material to shove towards the old road. Don't push much lower than the grade you want the new road to be at.If you can do this you will end up with a windrow of dirt in the new road.(where the new road will be) Backup straddling the windrow so you are facing the old road. If your pile causes you to bottom out you can flatten it out a little. You can even backup leaning into the hillside a bit to get your tilt started. Shove some dirt towards the old road and you can just about finish the approach. Alittle more and you have some for your tilt pile for going downhill. I hope this is the scene you have. I'm picturing around Bend and you are trying to get lake access? If I'm wrong I'll need more details. Could p.m. or e-mail a picture if you want. Be patient with me . I've got dialup,type with 2 fingers and if i proof read I send double posts or get kicked off if someone calls.

[Swawpy]

Thanks again Roadbuilder. Makes perfect sense. I am actually working near Prineville at a friends; cleared a spot for his cabin, skidded some trees, and trying to get him a access road ready for gravel. Having a blast doing the work and skidding trees. I just hate to have him spend money on gravel for a half-assed road. We're getting it slow but sure though. Thanks again for all your detailed replies!

[roadbuilder]

Sounds like your further along than just virgin ground. Skidding is part of the pioneering, and if you've already cleared the site you probably have covered the entire right-of-way. This gives you alot of options. I always walk a R/W before I build it. Lets me plan where material like stumps,and log decks can go so I can put them out of the way and not have to move them. Most importantly I see places that will generate alot of dirt and places that need fill. You don't always have to finish the road as you go.Sometimes I go out further and drift material back into saddles or benches if I know I need more material and dont have places to put it as sidecast or drift ahead.
So you can get your tilt piles about anywhere you can. Downhill is just easier shoving, but maybe in some places on your road you can get the tilt easier going uphill. I keep forgetting your more modern than the MC in my yard. My contract roads I build with J.D 850/ w 100" logging grapples (we have two C models) or D-8. All with tilt. I havn't skidded a log in years. I pioneer with a Cat 325B excavator with quik change bucket and 52"grapples. Most jobs I never even put the bucket on, tho I can changeover to bucket or grapples in 15 minutes usually, including the hydralics. I pack the unused attachment with me or set it out of the way till I need it. Got side tracked from your project but thought it might be interesting. Another sidenote, the post I wrote regarding cables and blocks as alernative to shoving trees might read as I havn't seen a cable break. Ive broke D-8 bull lines and more than a few chockers. After awhile you learn how much pull lines will take. I never really worried much about lash -back inside a cage so the sweatshirt over the line I never tried at work. The only time we did that was when we had a block in a tree for lift and power,and the MC (no screen on the back of its canopy) and the winch was actually shaking under the strain . Dad donated his sweatshirt to the line. The winch pulled the load. The line never broke so I didn't see if the sweatshirt would work. Just a thought for those with no canopies. Now thats scary. Might work with smaller cables and ropes.
" Ive never been hurt by something I was worried about."-quote from either Finley Hays or Rueb Long.
Anyway, you may have thought of this by now, If you need to start a tilt and can't get 90 degrees to start a trench to put track in, you can back track up on a block of wood ect. Might have to try a few times to get placement right.
Drainage is the key to a good firm long lasting road and will save on rocking costs in the long run.
Good luck, have fun. Enjoyed the chance to help. This is a great website. These guys haved helped me out alot and this is my oppurtuinity to "pay it forward".

[Ray III]

Good info here, thanks.

[Swawpy]

Very good, thanks again Roadbuilder!

[Swawpy]

Just a follow up if roadbuilder is still reading this...easier said than done! I cut about 500 yards of road in May and never figured out when to leave well enough alone. Always looked good till I kept messing with the road, trying to get it perfect. It seldom improved after my first couple passes and always got worse and worse...

A friend that runs equip for a living sais backblading is for guys who cant run a bulldozer...and I was a backblading SOB!!! Ha!

Anyway, had a lot of fun and got some seat time on my dozer. Thanks again.

[roadbuilder]

Hey Swawpy! Wondered how your project went. As long as your friend can get his motorhome in and out without highcentering and keep the boat on the trailer, you did good! Everyone has to start somewhere. Youve etched your signature in our great State. Proof Swawpy was here!
As for the backblading, I won't tell!
I've got a friend named Joe who built a retirment cabin in Prineville a couple of years ago.

[Ray III]

Kind of hard to get it perfect without backblading with old wore out stuff. The blade jumps and rocks everywhere then when the tracks roll over the result of that everything gets out of whack and the constant correction makes the surface uneven. It's probably easy to look down your nose at guys dragging a blade in reverse when you have shiny new equipment that keeps the blade exactly where it's told!

[roadbuilder]

When Swawpy first made the joke about backblading, I thought that I’d heard that before and that my friend Joe was the one who had said it. Still had to read through my posts and see if I had mentioned the technique. You are exactly right Ray. Lots of reasons to back-blade even with new and tight equipment, the biggest being time and space. In typical roadbuilder form, I’ll now comment on backblading. This is my opinion on the technique for those who may believe it to be taboo. As with all my posts, any thing said that is hurtful, insulting, humiliating to any member or guest is completely unintended. I only wish to provide the best info to those who would like it based on my "seat-time".
I figure the first guy to make that comment was a supervisor who was telling the new cat-skinner that to speed him up knowing the grader operator would fine-tune the project later. Maybe the project was a highway or an airport with room to turnaround. All luxuries you rarely have in the woods. Once you get that 16-18 foot road cut into that side-hill, you don’t like to skid-turn into your sub-grade. That just creates places for holes to develop later. I don’t always have a grader on the job and the road should be rolled to seal it between end of construction and processing for rocking. I can cut ahead and it looks like a grader has been there. That just takes seat-time. Also the longer the undercarriage, the weight of the blade and the power of the dozer makes a huge difference. You can cut smooth even with an MC but it does take patience. Usually you get dips and gouges when you are trying to cut in too high of a gear. Slow down or decelerate. If you get frustrated, get off the machine and look around at what you are doing. Gives you a little different perspective. You may notice something you could do differently. A few seconds or minutes can help you regain your focus. If you have tilt, you can wiggle the left/right a little and that helps sometimes too. I also use tilt to help me drift or cut around corners without using the steering brakes or clutches much, if at all. Tilt in the direction you need to turn. The ground you are working is probably the biggest factor in cutting. Blasted roadbeds are different than clay or loose dirt.
Efficiency is the number one item in any task you do. Versatility adds to efficiency. Back-blading gives your dozer bi-directional function. I even backblade with a grader! If you have to back-up and your done drifting ahead, you might as well be doing something. One thing to consider though. If I don’t have time to roll the road at the end of the day and I think it might rain or snow overnight, I do not backblade. Backblading usually leaves a flour –like covering which holds water and doesn’t dryout as fast as a forward cut even with the grousser marks which are compacted to some extent anyway depending on the material your working with. When backblading don’t forget to look behind you once in awhile. You don,t want to back into or over a bank.

[Tigerhaze]

I know this discussion is about straight cutting a road into a sidehill, but thought my experience is somewhat relevant. I don't build roads for a living, but I am building a long driveway through swampy ground to my homestead with a crawler loader. I also am a geological engineer who does some tangential road design and construction oversight as part of my job duties.

I have found in practice with these older crawlers that backblading is helps but doesn't get me entirely where I need to be with each lift of the road subgrade. Backblading especially helps when I am placing a new lift of material prior to compaction to shape lines and grades, as mentioned cutting in forward generally leaves divets and pockets that have to be filled. it is tough to cut in forward with worn out equipment. It helps to "float" the blade when backblading (or in my case, the loader bucket) to help fill in these divets.

I have my best results by placing a lift of material loose, backblading it to get the general shape, and then compacting it (I have a dual smooth drum walkbehind vibratory compactor). I then use a tractor blade to fine grade and fill in some of the divets and then recompact with the vibratory compactor before my next lift. If working in cohesive soils, better to use a padfoot or sheepsfoot roller.

As mentioned, the compaction of the lift is a crucial component of the work- the crawlers simply don't get the ground pressure necessary to get good compaction. Loose lifts should be kept to less than 12 inches (6 inches is even better) to further ensure that good compaction is taking place on the road subgrade. Proper compaction can't be effectively done in excessively wet or dry soils.