Why 6 volt over 12volt?

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Willyr
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Why 6 volt over 12volt?

Post by Willyr » Tue May 22, 2012 11:46 am

I posted this over to the Antiquetractorforum and thought it was worth it here.

6 volt turns slow, 12 volt she will start right up

6 volt is original and correct. 12 volt is aftermarket

6 volt you can get lights and parts on line. 12 volt you can get anywhere.

6 volt may not have the umph to start at 50% charge. 12 volt, oh hey its now 6. (lol)

6 volt you dont need to change anything. 12 volt you will need 12 volt bulbs + charging circuit + resistor.

6 volt generator has field coils in the regulator that will eventually stick and drain battery, maybe even fry the regulator. 12 volt you can get a one wire alternator for $48, install it and it is happy. It has diodes, only way to hurt it is to hook it up positive ground.

12 volt can run on a 6 volt system. 12 volt you can use smaller wires to achieve the same thing (why autos are now 12 volt)
6 volt CANNOT be used in a 12volt system.

12 volt most of your wiring is 16 gauge (less copper). 6 volt your wires are 12 gauge or larger.

6volt if you try to jump start the battery will explode if it gets 12 volt. You will also destroy the lights if on, burn out anything 6 volt when it gets that 12 volt.
12volt, No Probs if some one jump starts you.

6volt group 1 batteries are $65 and up! 12 volt batteries are $45 and up.

6 volt will not run a inverter. 12 volt you can hook up a inverter out in the field and build a house!

Its really up to you.
former owner of a 1956 420c
All help is greatly appreciated.

Proud owner of a project 1952 JD 60

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFehqXVd9z4

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JD440ICD2006
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Post by JD440ICD2006 » Tue May 22, 2012 5:16 pm

Many pros and cons, and it does come down to the owner's preference and how they want to use the tractor or vehicle.
My personal take is that generators are original equipment. While newer gizmos such as alternators are more efficient, so are digital gauges, and other items.
I do not want digital gauges on my pre 1960 rolling stock, and neither do I want alternators.
I rebuild my gennys. I have had the same battery in a JD 730D for the last 11 years. Generator and VR are what keep it charged. It still charges today and likely will be 10 years or more from now.
It just looks so right to see an original generator in there where it was from the factory.
1959 JD 440ICD w/64 Power Angle Tilt Blade
1959 JD 440ICD w/63 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 440IC w/602 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 730D W SE (many options)
1950 JD M S w/M-20 Mower
1952 JD M W
1955 FORD 640 (burns the most fuel)

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Post by Lavoy » Tue May 22, 2012 7:26 pm

My biggest promblems with 12 volt conversions are:
1. It is almost always a bandaid fix for an underlying problem. Instead of fixing the bad part, let's throw a couple thousand more watts to it, that should fix the problem.
2. 12 volts on a Dubuque starter is going to eventually break the nose cone, the starter drive, or chew the hell out of the ring gear on the flywheel. All of which likely cost more to fix than to have fixed the original problem.
That is not to say I have not converted a couple myself, but none that I personally own, and I am careful on how I do it to mitigate as much of the damage potential as I can. If I was going to convert one of my own, I would have the starter rewound to 12 volts if at all possible.
Lavoy

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Sat May 26, 2012 3:55 pm

Hi,

Sticking 12v onto a 6v starter always conjurs the image of Dr. Frankenstein when he throws his switch: "It's Alive!!" ;)

Yes, 12v does fire one up with tired stuff, all right. But, the local villagers will show up at your barn with torches and pitchforks eventually. :P

You know, if the 6v stuff is properly maintained it works just fine. I have two piles of old iron still, the 1950 'M' and the 1958 420c, and they both are still 6v, still running their original 6v stuff except for the batteries (of course). Even the tail light on the 420c is the original two-bulb unit white and red.

I did have to add an ignition bypass switch a couple years ago when the 'I' position on the main got to be intermittent. One day, I will put in a new ILBD switch, but when I have to pull the dashboard for something else.

Yes, I have had to fix the starters, generators and the regulator on the 420c (the M has a three-brush generator, so no regulator). It's a piece of cake, actually. I don't even need glasses to see the parts. Try fixing an iPad with those components the size of flakes of pepper. You need a 25x microscope to work on those! :P

I have seen as many stuck regulators on 12v systems as 6v ones, BTW. Most of the time the fix is using a tape demagnetizer on the coils and they stop sticking. Eventually, they form a permanent magnetic field on the coil cores that doesn't need to be there. Wipe it out and it's fine for another decade or two.

Oh, and be happy with the fact y'all aren't dealing with the old 24v systems for starting that switched to 12v for running. Ever see what happens when the switchover contactors stick? The two 12v batteries stay in series at 24v hooked into what is 12v everywhere else than the starter. Poof! Lots of smoke escapes from many things..... Ugh.

Later!

Stan

Later!

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

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digitup2
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Post by digitup2 » Sat May 26, 2012 7:33 pm

Yes Stan wonderful things happen faster with 24 volts .You can weld with 24 volt's.One of the biggest things to mess up on the change up [As far as I am concerned ]is when going from 6 volts to 12 in the old wiring just isn't able to take the voltage or amperage that the proper 12 volt system has I know of several 6 to 12 volt change overs that caught fire .I like to leave 6 volt at 6 volt 12 volt at 12 volt and 24 volt at it"s respected voltage as well Our Drainage plows were 24 volt completely and we added a 12 volt circuit for the GPS systems now we are running three different systems at once for 1 for steering ,1 for grade and and a third for mapping and laptop and we also run 12 volt for the two way radios Running two different voltages at once can be a pain but I know the old 6 volt system doesn't like 12 volt shoved through it in more ways than one.I have had several old 6 volt machines through the shop that were better off left alone in the beginning{as far as I am concerned] although the customer is always right.Digitup.

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Why not 8 volt?

Post by 2010OWNER » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:45 pm

Twenty years ago I converted my '51 Dodge dump truck from 6 to 8 volts. I didn't have to change anything but the battery. A little twist of a screw on the voltage regulator to up the voltage and it started an ran like new.
Wish I'd kept it.
Brian
'63 2010 Dozer, '44 Model B Tractor,'65 2010 Tractor, '55 40c crawler, '77 2240 Orchard Tractor.

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Re: Why 6 volt over 12volt?

Post by oldtanker » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:13 pm

Willyr wrote:I posted this over to the Antiquetractorforum and thought it was worth it here.

6 volt turns slow, 12 volt she will start right up

6 volt is original and correct. 12 volt is aftermarket

6 volt you can get lights and parts on line. 12 volt you can get anywhere.

6 volt may not have the umph to start at 50% charge. 12 volt, oh hey its now 6. (lol)

6 volt you dont need to change anything. 12 volt you will need 12 volt bulbs + charging circuit + resistor.

6 volt generator has field coils in the regulator that will eventually stick and drain battery, maybe even fry the regulator. 12 volt you can get a one wire alternator for $48, install it and it is happy. It has diodes, only way to hurt it is to hook it up positive ground.

12 volt can run on a 6 volt system. 12 volt you can use smaller wires to achieve the same thing (why autos are now 12 volt)
6 volt CANNOT be used in a 12volt system.

12 volt most of your wiring is 16 gauge (less copper). 6 volt your wires are 12 gauge or larger.

6volt if you try to jump start the battery will explode if it gets 12 volt. You will also destroy the lights if on, burn out anything 6 volt when it gets that 12 volt.
12volt, No Probs if some one jump starts you.

6volt group 1 batteries are $65 and up! 12 volt batteries are $45 and up.

6 volt will not run a inverter. 12 volt you can hook up a inverter out in the field and build a house!

Its really up to you.
I too am a 12 volt advocate. I need my stuff to start when I need it and I don't want to stand out in -20F weather any longer than I hae too. My IH M when still 6 volt would sit all winter cause it would not start easy. After setting for 4 months would fire right up on the first try. Now with 12 volt it fires right up at -20. Same with my 8N. Complete engine rebuild, fresh points and condenser, carb rebuild and no go at -20 without pre heating it. WIth 12 volt now fires right up in all weather conditions. Plus I don't have to worry about the wife having to jump one if needed.

Rick

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Willyr
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Post by Willyr » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:07 am

aww but its so fun making the wife jump.


grin
former owner of a 1956 420c
All help is greatly appreciated.

Proud owner of a project 1952 JD 60

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFehqXVd9z4

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JD440ICD2006
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Post by JD440ICD2006 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:15 am

I think we are meadering off track. (no pun intended)
If it now takes 12 volts to make the wife jump and used to only take 6 volts, hummmmmmmmmmmmm.
1959 JD 440ICD w/64 Power Angle Tilt Blade
1959 JD 440ICD w/63 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 440IC w/602 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 730D W SE (many options)
1950 JD M S w/M-20 Mower
1952 JD M W
1955 FORD 640 (burns the most fuel)

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Post by Lavoy » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:10 am

I just worked on a shining example of what 12 volts does, or will eventually do.
Got a friends crawler here for steering clutch work. Can't get it started, sounds like the drive is grinding on the ring gear. Crawler was on 12 volts when he got it. Finally got fed up and pulled the starter off to find the problem. The threaded end of the drive was blown completely off, and it was pushing the drive back so that it was jumping on the internal part of the drive. I put a new drive and switch on, it started right up.
It is not that 12 volts will not work, and work well, but sooner or later you are going to break something unless the starter is rewound for 12 volts.
Lavoy

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Willyr
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Post by Willyr » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:28 pm

If it is a 4 pole brush setup, just take one ground out of the starter. It will reduce how quickly it will come out.

Then again starter drives are not that much. It is just work to do and keeps you in business Lavoy. Image Grin so quit yer belly achin Lavoy. teasing ya!
former owner of a 1956 420c
All help is greatly appreciated.

Proud owner of a project 1952 JD 60

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFehqXVd9z4

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Post by Lavoy » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:53 pm

Starter drives are the easy part, it is when it breaks the nose cone, which is unavailable, or wrecks the ring gear, which is a lot of work. But, I do stock drives and ring gears, so must be a lot of 12 volt conversions out there. :lol:
Lavoy

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Post by JD40c » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:55 pm

I suprise people at how well the 6V system starts up my 40c, even at sub-zero temps. It's a badge of pride :-)
1955 John Deere 40C 4-roller

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pop pop
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Post by pop pop » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:25 pm

ahhh, memories, i remember sitting on a tractor that wouldn't start,,, of course it was colder than a well digger's rear .
i was told to hold the starter on and the old guy , well he stuck 12vdc to that 6vdc batt and got it started quick.
this was a trick i thought was bad taboo,,, but it worked that day,
440icd/602/8a,,440icd/831/ripper,,440icd/831/3pt.,misc. 440 parts, i have 5 of these now, but i can stop anytime :cry:

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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:26 pm

Nice discussion.
I suprise people at how well the 6V system starts up my 40c, even at sub-zero temps. It's a badge of pride
I'm in this group. Some one spent a lot of time designing a solid, repairable system which has served me well.
I've replaced the wiring harness and made sure that all the electrical connections are clean and tight, replaced a few disposables, and slowly the system is becoming as reliable as stated above. I hate having machines that won't start when needed.
6volts, positive ground works well for me on my crawler. I'm not electrically inclined, but it's a matter of getting the juice to the needed places with out unnecessary restrictions; older machines need to have their wiring upgraded and other parts brought up to original standards, and then they will work as expected. JMHO. Paul
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

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