450 Injectors (rebuildable or not?)

[kraigthomas]

I have a 1968 JD450, in a previous "am I crazy" thread it seemed unanimous that my injectors need some help. I don't want anyone upset with anyone else, but I'm new enough to all of this to need to ask for further advise.

1) Are the injectors rebuildable or buy them new is the only option? If they are a new item only does anyone know of an internet site where this kind of stuff can be purchased?

2) Any further thoughts if I should try any injector cleaner first & if so what brand? (or is this just a waste of money)

Comments / Quotes from previous thread...

Digitup had mentioned:

If it is spitting white smoke then pull the injectors and get them rebuilt as soon as possible also .This is no big job and not expensive either .The motor will start and run better after . The reason you see white puffs of smoke is your injectors are dumping raw fuel at a certain point lugging or starting .when you rebuild them at a diesel injector shop then the injectors will mist fuel and burn it proper .

jdemaris mentioned:

There is no way to rebuild those injectors. Never has been. All the Deere 350s and 450s use Stanadyne pencil injectors. When they get worn, you buy new ones.

and wwattson mentioned:

My auto mechanic neighbor likes to run cleaner through injectors as a potential fix prior to pulling them out and sending them for rebuild. I can't remember the name of the stuff he uses but I know the procedure is to disconnect the supply and return from the injector pump and plug them into a bottle of this cleaner.

[/quote]

[jdemaris]

I have a 1968 JD450, in a previous "am I crazy" thread it seemed unanimous that my injectors need some help. I don't want anyone upset with anyone else, but I'm new enough to all of this to need to ask for further advise.

1) Are the injectors rebuildable or buy them new is the only option? If they are a new item only does anyone know of an internet site where this kind of stuff can be purchased?

I already gave my answer once, so maybe I'm wasting my time doing it again. You'll have to do your own reseach and draw your own conclusions.


One more time, no - they are not rebuildable. They have moving metal parts and those parts wear over time. There is no cost-effective way to renew those parts unlike bigger injectors that use replaceable nozzle-tips.
Pencil-injectors that all 350s and 450s use are bascially "throw-away" units. That being said - these pencil injectors are orifice-hole type units, and NOT pintle-type. The difference is - they have many very small nozzle holes to atomize fuel. So, there are some injectors that malfunction because the holes plug - before they are mechanically worn out. I used to work in a diesel pump/injector shop. During slow-times, we'd pull used pencil injectors out of box (that we got for free), and test one by one. Any that we found that were only half worn-out with plugged holes - we'd unplug, clean up, and sell as "rebuilt." Maybe 1 out of 5 was worth using again. When you buy a "rebuilt" pencil injector, you are getting a somewhat worn but cleaned up injector - and that is all.
Considering how difficult they can sometimes be to get out, it's not something I'd use. I just put new pencil injectors in my Case and they cost me $65 each. I hated to do it, but that's just the way things are. I just put brand new injector nozzles in my Ford truck and they cost me $6 each - brand new. That's what's nice about big injectors with replaceble tips.

In regard to using a chemical injector cleaner? In my opinion, it is a total waste of money. When these pencil injectors get plugged orifices, the plugs are rock hard and often even a special cleaning wire won't work. There are some very pricey ultrasonic cleaners that will sometimes break the clogs loose. A chemical cleaner, in this situation, is a joke.

In regard to buying? I've tried buying aftermarket, direct from Stanadyne, and from Deere or Case. In just about every situation, it was just as cheap to buy OEM from Deere or Case, as it was to buy somewhere else. Maybe there are some deals out there, but unless it's left over surplus, I haven't found them. Stanadyne has the patent rights on the pencil injector, and I've yet to see any made aftermarket. But . . . even many of the OEM injectors are now made in China, so ther may be some "knock-offs" out there for sale.
They are not very common. Case, Cat and Deere use them in some applications. So did GM in some early Oldsmobile V-8 diesels. Maybe a few Olivers.

Deere 450 can use any of the following. I'm giving the Deere #s along with the Stanadyne/Roosamaster #s:

AT18064 (Roosamaster 16422, 17511, 17427). Has four .012" orifices.
PSI - 2750-2850 new and 2550-2650 PSI used.

AT25502 (Roosamaster 17579,17574). Has five .010" orifices. 2950-3050 PSI new and 2750-2850 PSI used.

AT30299 (Roosamaster 18457 and 18458). Has five .010" orifices. 2950-3020 PSI new nad 2750 to 2850 PSI used.

AR49876 (Roosamaster 18742, 18717, 20492, 20491). Has five .010" orifices. 3150-3250 PSI new and 2950-3050 used.

AR49877 (Roosamaster 18742, 18717, 20492, 20491). Has five .010" orifices. 3150-3250 PSI new and 2950-3050 used.

AR56289 (Roosamaster 19762). Four .011" orifices. 3150-3250 PSI new and 2990-3050 PSI used.

AR56290 ((Roosmaster 19763). Four .011" orifices. 3150-3250 PSI new and 2990-3050 PSI used.

[jdemaris]

I have a 1968 JD450, in a previous "am I crazy" thread it seemed unanimous that my injectors need some help.

One more comment about injectors. With the problems you describe, the injectors would not be the first thing I'd suspect. More likely your injection pump and timing-advance issues - along with others. Those pumps have items that always go bad after X amount of time.

With injectors? They are supposed to be replaced after X amount of hours, just like you do with spark plugs in a gas engine (but the injectors last a lot longer). That being said, I've pulled apart many a good running Deere that came in for a rebuild due to oil burning. 5-10,000 engine hours and still had good power and still started well. With many of them, I'd test the old injectors during the rebuild process and . . . most of the time they were absolutely terrible. Low pressure, dribbling fuel instead of atomizing it, etc. Yet, many of these machines still ran pretty good. With many of our customers, an injector only got changed when it plugged completely and that cylinder stopped firing (like having a fouled spark plug). And, sometimes we'd have to pull off a cylinder head to get the damn things out.

I'm not saying it's a good thing to run with crappy injectors. What I AM says is - I've worked on many WITH crappy injectors that ran pretty good.
I've also worked on 350s and 450s with no top piston rings left that also ran pretty good once hot.

On the other hand, if the plastic weight retainer in the pump is broken, and/or the timing advance is sluggish - the engine will puff white smoke, skip, break-up at high no-load RPM, etc.

[Lavoy]

Just got off the phone with my supplier, so here is what I found out. They are rebuildable, but not in the sense that you can replace the tip itself like on the larger injectors. If you have a badly worn tip, the injector is junk. They also said that a rebuilt may or may not have as good a pattern as a new one due to wear. If the pattern is bad, they will not rebuild them. They also told me there are one of only a couple shops in the US that will rebuild them, that may be part of the confusion.
In either case, I can get you new or rebuilt. New are about $100, rebuilt half that but I need your old cores back, otherwise $20 core charge each. Even if the tips are bad, they will still allow the core, I made sure to ask them that. It basically comes down to dollars, $200 vs $400 to replace all 4, and/or if you will be happy with an injector that in their words will be "95% or better of new" for half the price. If you were doing a full restoration or the engine was just rebuilt, I guess I would go with new, other than that, it is personal choice.
Lavoy

[kraigthomas]

No, you didn't waste your breath (or fingers typing). I'm just so new to crawlers and diesel to know any better. I just saw three different suggestions as I took it and they were all different...but now it is perfectly clear. Thank you so much for the extra detail on the different types of injectors and how they work!!!

As a side note, I also separated it out as a specific question for a single thread. In my initial thread I put to many questions mixed together. I'm personally finding it hard to search for specific questions when a thread has so much mixed in.

[kraigthomas]

UGH...you guys posted two new responses, I love all the info and will try my best to not be dumb confused newbie.

It seems I have to do some more trouble shooting to do. I'm guessing with 9700 hours on the crawler new injectors will be a good thing regardless unless there is a way I can test them or have someone test them to see if they are still good or were replaced before I got the machine. I don't have paperwork to indicate that though. Same with the injector pump...can I test it?

Are there procedures for troubleshooting this kind of hard starting in the service manual. It is so thick & I've only been reading how to actually use the thing so far.

Thanks I hope I'm not to frustrating to you all.

[Lavoy]

Hard starting can be injectors, pump, low compression, and probably a few other things. Yes pump and injectors can be tested, no you can not do it unless you have a test stand. Going the cheapest route first, I would look at the injectors. See if there is a local injection shop or dealer that can test them for you. If you can come up with a compression tester, that is a good time to check that while the injectors are out.
Lavoy

[jdemaris]

I'm guessing with 9700 hours on the crawler new injectors will be a good thing

Same with the injector pump...can I test it?

Are there procedures for troubleshooting this kind of hard starting in the service manual

Simple things can be complicated if you're not experienced - and vice-versa. You need some experience or knowledge to do some troubleshooting.

Off the bat, I seriously doubt your crawler has 9700 hours on an original engine. Those engines can last 10,000 hours in perfect stready-load conditions more common with farm tractors, but that rarely happens with crawlers. In fact, I haven't seen too many hour meters last that long before replacement, much less engines.

The injector pumps - if a JDB or DB series will go bad over time, regardless of engine hours. Easiest test is #1 - pull the little timing window off, and/or the top cover of the pump and visually inspect for debris. If you find any little dark "crumbs" inside that look like mouse turds, the pump needs repair. #2 - put a timing window on the pump and check the timing advance.

With the injectors - if it's running on all it's cylinders, there no test other than pulling them out and testing. If you want to do yourself, a simple tester can be made from a hydraulic bottle jack - or you can buy a brand new, factory-made tester for $125.

As far as trouble-shooing goes, you can take a compression test. Also, you can pull of the exhaust manifold and see if all the exhaust ports have equal soot build-up. If you see any ports that have heavier build-up, there is probably trouble with that cylinder.

To be a bit more simplistic, if the pump checks out, and the injectors check out, and it doesn't run well, you can assume internal damage.
You can have the head off in an hour, and onced off - you can look at the cylinders and piston tops and know for sure what is bad and what is not.

You can buy brand new pencil injectors for $50-$60 each; you just have to shop around.


Right now, Diesel Parts of America - Telephone: 818-764-2508
has new injectors for your 450 for $59. It's the lastest Stanadyne replacementf or the OEM AR56290 - now a # 27333.

http://www.dpausa.com/pdf/johndeere.pdf

[jdemaris]

Just got off the phone with my supplier, so here is what I found out. They are rebuildable

New are about $100, rebuilt half that but I need your old cores back, otherwise $20 core charge each. Even if the tips are bad, they will still allow the core, I made sure to ask them that.

Brand new pencil injectors are usually pretty easy to find for $50-$60. Right now, I know of three places (that I just called) that have brand new Stanadyne injectors for 450 Deeres for $59 each. The older Deere AR56290 now is replaced with the Stanadyne 27333.

A big problem as I see it -is - these places are playing with words. Lavoy - would you feel comfortable cleaning and tuning an engine without renewing any parts and then calling it "rebuilt" as long as it ran okay? I assume not. I'd call it tested, and tuned, at best. Diesel shops and resellers often DO use the word "rebuilt" when it is basically, BS and misleading.

So, I guess I have to ask others - what does the word "rebuilt" mean to you? To me, it denotes that some sort of work has been done to renew parts so they will give service and life that resembles a new part.

You rebuild an engine - you might grind the crank, install new bearings, new liners, pistons, rings, valves, seats, etc. etc. When done, if done right, that engine is as good as a new one.

Take an injector that has worn parts, clean it, test it - and then call it rebuilt" Come on! To a lesser degree, same goes on with pumps. Most injector pumps get cleaned up, maybe $50 in small parts installed, calibrated, and then sold as "rebuilt." As far as mu use of the word goes, it still does not fit. Most "rebuilt" pumps are clean up and calibrated to work like a new one does in regard to timing and fuel delivery - but not necessarily with the life-span of a new one.

I'll also add that I don't believe there is any way an old cleaned up injector will have near the service life of a new one. Yeah, it's easy for places to say it - but it's all basically just words.

[jdemaris]

Just wanted to add - the same brand new pencil injectors for 350 and 450 Deeres - # 27333, or 27336 for turbo - are $41 brand-new in England (28 UK pound sterling). Could even be worth shipping to the USA for the price, but they can probably be found here just as cheap.

http://www.uniteddiesel.co.uk/diesel_in ... ohn_deere/