Looking to buy 450 crawler loader with backhoe

[Swawpy]

Hello and Happy New Year!

I know all you guys always get these type of posts as to value of machines, accessories etc. with little info to go on but I am just looking for a little feedback/knowledge about a loader I am looking into the past couple days.

First- I could not make out the serial # at all, blank except for the T 53EM...which I found to mean a diesel loader crawler with HLR.

This 450 has a turbo engine and 9300 hoe attached, and drott 4 in 1. It shows 5300 hrs and also has power steering and dry clutches. New hyd pump, alternator, and starter.

The seller thought it was a 1970ish but I read somewhere the 9300 hoe was on 80's machines. Also is this the less-desirable hoe with obsolete parts for the rotary?

It is said to have new pins, bushings, rails, rollers, and idlers and he explained that they preffered the worn (way worn out, nearly smooth, cupped and bent) track pads because they did not tear up much ground and always had enough traction with the weight of the hoe attached. Sounds reasonable I guess but I will want to replace them before I take it in the woods to work. Wondering about how much roughly for used and how hard to come by?

It has sat for 2 years or so and we tried to start but ran out of battery. We got smoke and a few pops and thought she would go but did not. I think it will fire right up with a fresh battery.

Throttle is froze up (easy fix), hoses marginal, radiator leaks to about 2/3 level and needs fixed, needs pre-air housing, seats, and a full service, and odds and ends. But all in all looks cared after, greased, and maintained.

Last but not least...he stated the left clutch started slipping last time he used it under heavy load trying to push a full bucket. Could need adj. or likely rebuild.

Now we have not started, ran, turned, or anything yet and I know all these things will ultimately dictate the price but....assuming she starts, shifts, turns, and runs as it should? $$?

He is asking $9500 if there are no surpprises but I know he would take 9k if it runs and operates like when it was parked last and negotiate down from there for issues. Sound reasonable?

If I have to rebuild the left or both sides bescause they are stuck rusted or slip is 7k too much? Of coarse I will try adj procedures first and all but if we can run it I would like to make some kind of offer and take her home. I know its alot of "if's" I'm just trying to get some ballpark $ and make a fair offer for both of us and leave myself a little room for the unexpected.

Thanks

[Tigerhaze]

Since no one else replied yet, I'll jump in but I'll forewarn you that my experience is with the predecessor to the 450 (2010) with a hoe attachment so clarification from others or other opinions are appreciated.

The presence of a turbo on the engine but dry steering clutches leads me to think it is a late 450B model- this would make it somewhere around a 1974- 1976 model.

http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... php?t=2415

The 9300 hoe was used on later crawlers but could be used on 450s as well:

http://murphyused.com/images/specs/346.pdf

I was corrected in an earlier thread that some of the seal kits are still available for the rotary swing cylinders, especially for the 9300 hoes so I don't know that I would worry about it unless the boom swing is not responsive when operated.

I have worn loader (triple bar) track pads on my 2010, and while you can get OK traction on firm ground the traction is a lot less on slippery surfaces such as hils, wet clays, etc. Also you will not want to have the hoe on all the time unless you are using it because it makes it hard to traverse uneven ground and is hard on sprockets, finals, etc. If you can afford it, I think it is wise to get new pads unless you plan on driving on surfaces such as turf, pavement, or gravel roads that you don't want to tear up. I don't know about used, but new should still be available.

I think the price ranges discussed are reasonable if the major components (engine, HLR, finals) are operating well and the undercarriage is in otherwise in good shape. You really need to be especially sure of the HLR transmission because they can often appear to be OK when cold and then slip when hot. Search the archives on here and there are a number of posts about checking out a 450 before purchase. My understanding is that replacing steering clutches are not too difficult on 450s. Having a Drott 4in1 is a nice feature to complement the hoe, especially if the clam is not bent.

I think I would do that deal, especially if you can get him down to $7K and all major systems check out. As always, prices can vary based on condition, location, market conditions, etc.

Others may have different opinions.

[Swawpy]

Thanks for the reply Tigerhaze...After I re-read my post I realized there where too many questions and not just a simple question/reply. Anyway I get a bit excited with the thought of a new machine...Im sure everyone here can can understand a little crawler-itis fever right? Yes I will surely replace the grousers as I plan to cut some roads, trails, and clear a small homesite from 10 year douglas fir growth. Good advise on taking the strain off the machine when not using the hoe. We still have not got it started yet...it is about 200 yds down an overgrown log road and was parked/stashed there about 2 years ago, the owner wanted it well out of sight of thieves and doper/scrappers. It sounds as if the poor guy has been ripped off blind over the years and actually has had good equipment cut up and hauled out. Anyway I just hate using starting fluid and it has been around 25-30 degrees here so she has had a hard time firing. Got a couple pops with a light wiff of fluid but I just hate to keep feeding more and more fluid crossing your fingers. I wish there where a way to de-stroke the hyd pump for starting like my old 400 loder/hoe. I will try again with a fresh battery and clean up the ground and other connections first. It's bled and pulsing fuel from all injectors. I was thinking of taking my little torch and try and pre-heat the intake manifold a little when I try next time. Waste of time?

Thanks again and I'll keep ya posted on results.

[Tigerhaze]

A couple more thoughts for you.

The crawler loaders typically need a little bit of counterweight in the rear, especially when loading full buckets of wet soil. I have used my 2010 loader without the hoe attachment nor counterweights, and it can lift the rear off the ground enough to affect steering. When the hoe is not attached, you are supposed to use counterweights- on my 2010 it is 1000 pounds (5 suitcase weights). It is less if other types of attachments are used ad none if the hoe is attached. You will find that you don't want to have the hoe attached when doing loading-only operations, so you should look into whether counterweight brackets are available. For my 2010, the counterweight bracket is quick detach and connects right to the hoe bracket.

I really am not familiar with the 450Bs, but on my 2010 there is a HLR disconnect lever- it allows the engine to turn over much more quickly for cold weather starting. You may want to look into whether the 450Bs have something like that.

I don't see that heating the intake slightly will hurt anything- my Ford tractor uses an intake heater for cold weather starting. Many on here have discussed putting in block heaters to help in cold weather, but may not be an option for you if the crawler is well away from an electrical source.

One other thought- if you only have one battery for starting you may want to hook up a second in parallel (not series) to double available amperage. At least on my machine, starter speed is critical to starting when cold and it can drop off quick when turning that starter over in cold weather.

Keep us posted- I'm sure others with 450 experience will weigh in once they see this.

[FL450B]

also look at the bolt that hold the bell housing in the frame they break may times in the hole that they pass into the clutch housing are sunk in the frame if thats what you see get out the welder and some pipe to get them out rt side upper is mostly what you may see dozer / loders have smaller pads on the track so you cant rip off the loder assy goood luck i have the a 450 b with the HLR transmisson make sure as tiger haze has al ready told you about look at the pan under the transmisson look for oil the front seal a 7.00 part offten leak and the motor has to come out to replace that seal

[Swawpy]

Thanks for all the help and tips...will definately check into all these areas. Hey Tiger is the HLR disconnect you mentioned down at your left foot? A "T" rod that pulls up and notches into a relief in the floor plate? I actually went and looked at a diesel 2010 this afternoon since it was so close and they only wanted 2k. It has an 830 loader and 98? backhoe that was not mounted. Another adventurous day...I brought a fresh battery and checked oil levels before starting. Has sat for 6 mos. I installed the battery and it fired right up in about 4 turns, it had a miss for about 45 seconds then smoothed right out and purred. Really ran well. I let it idle for about 20 minutes while I looked everything over and figured I better go get some hyd fluid before I really ran it because the hyd tank on the left side was not even on the stick. I ran it foward and back a few feet, loader struggled to raise and shut it down. I restarted it twice just to confirm how well it started. Went and got lunch and 5 gal of 303, came back, added oil, and nothing. Just dead. Both Gen and Oil lights lit on dash but absolutely no response in the start position. I could not figure it out...I just shut it down an hour before. I tried the key while working the HLR lever in case of a safety switch. Removed keyswitch and tried to jump...nada. Went to remove the starter to access the wires and it wont clear with fuel filters on so I called it a day. Owner passed away and the son knows nothing about it other than he wants 2k for it. Anyway it looks to be in good shape, but what a bear to work try and work around these loader frames. I am gonna go back with some wire jumpers and misc and try again. Impossable to jump accross the starter, could not even see the wires behind and underneath. Wish me luck.

[Tigerhaze]

Hi Swampy-

I'm assuming that your post concerning starting is for the 2010 and not the 450. My advice pertains to a 2010 diesel crawler loader. If the 2010 runs that well it is probably a deal at $2K but be aware there are some drawbacks such as obselete parts and very expensive Deere-only parts.

Yes, the HLR disconnect lever is the t-handle in the left floorboard- just pull up until it locks into the notch. It will really help starting, but then needs to be released for the loader hydraulics to work because it also disconnects the rear Cessna pump used on 2010 loaders plumbed for a hoe.

The backhoe that was used on the 2010s was the Model 50 or 51- both are open centers backhoe that has the rotary swing cylinder also used on the later hoe models. The difference between the 50 and 51 is the 50 is a center of tractor boom, and the 51 is a "slider" which allows the boom center to be slid left or right. You can tell the difference by a large rectangular plate on the 51. it's possible that a different model hoe was attached but would have to be an open center attachment. You have to be really careful to make sure that you only use an open center backhoe on an open center hydraulic system, and closed on closed. However since the backhoe is already attached to the 2010 you can feel certain that it is an open center model. Here are links to the spec sheets for the 50 and 51:

http://murphyused.com/images/specs/359.pdf
http://murphyused.com/images/specs/358.pdf

I had a similar problem on my 2010 with only dash lights coming on but no starting. It could be that you fried the solenoid on the starter and it is not starting now. I had that happen with my 2010- sometimes it would start and sometimes it would only allow the dash lights to come on but no solenoid click. I pulled the starter and replaced with fresh rebuilt and haven't had problems since. A new starter will also allow it to turn over faster which allows for a quicker start.

You can get at the starter a little easier once you move the fuel filter assembly. At least on my 2010 you can remove the bracket bolts and swing the filter assembly out of the way (the fuel lines have a flexbile hose coupler) without removing the filters. That way you don't have to bleed after reassembly. Once that is out of the way you can access the starter but to really get to the wires it is easler ot pull the starter assembly- it is just two nuts (or a nut and a bolt) if I remember right. I believe there is a cutout in the frame to acess one of the nuts. Yes, the loader frames are a pain to work around.I would caution you that the starter is HEAVY!

When you start the 2010 again, use the glowplugs (i.e. turn key counterclockwise for about 30 seconds)- it will really help starting. DO NOT use ether because it can damage the precombustion chambers or worse.

Let us know if you have any more questions. if you have the cash, it would be nice to have a 450 AND a 2010- that way you can pull one out with the other if it gets stuck. I can vouch for that

[Swawpy]

Thanks again Tiger- I def can't afford both but for 2k I dont think I can pass it up for a 2010. And yes it started great- I didnt even know about the glowplugs! But now that you mention glowplugs...here is my theory. First off the key switch was kinda broken and the detents for left and right position where gone, it seemed to work but was one smooth action from left to right...so when I started it I had to manually turn the key back to run to keep the starter from cranking.When I first connected a fresh battery it really arced when I connected the ground (you know like a big draw). I didnt think to much of it wanting to get it started so if the keywitch was feeding the glows / explains why it started so well. Then when when I went for lunch and hyd fluid the glowplugs zapped the battery. I never did ckeck for volts because I knew it was a fresh battery just off the trickle charger and an optima red top. The battery literally only had to crank about 5 seconds within 3 starts. Wishful thinking, but I think I will go check my battery out right now and look at the elect schematic tonight. My neighbor loaned me a service manual he had and my wife can make a copy at work!!!

Anyway- I can't beat the price, and still can get alot done with a reg loader bucket (instead of 4 way) and its got a hoe. Sounds like I better start a new post for a 2010. Thanks again

[Tigerhaze]

You will want to search archives on here about 2010s- there is a lot of good information you should know before and after you purchase. One key thing to look at is undercarriage condition- many of those parts are obselete or VERY pricey.