JD450B what to do..... sell off as parts?

[srshaw3]

I found a JD450B with known steering issues.
I had obtained an estimate of 2-3 man days to change the steering clutches.
I had obtained an estimate of @$1600 for steering clutches via U.S. manufacturer.

I bought the JD450B and had it trucked to the dealer.
The dealer has now suggested it has hydraulic issues, presumably pressure is too low, although it develops enough pressure to use the backhoe to steer the dozer.
The dealer now suggests it could be 100 hours! plus parts...

So, I seek suggestions:
1. Is it worth fixing? If I have $15k in it (total of purchase and service), does that make sense?
2. Is it better to find someone who can use it as parts, or fix it themself?

I intended to learn how to use it and upgrade a road on property I just purchased, as well as possibly dig a septic system and possibly even dig a foundation hole with. So, I have a need, and will get good value out of it, but always expected I would recover much of its cost when reselling, at that time I would have less need for a dozer, and more need for other tractors (I suspect).

Thanks in advance for your common knowledge

[digitup2]

This may hit a lot of people hard but Deere doesn't give a rats ass about older Deere's being anything but SCRAP iron and a good way to accomplish this is give repair prices and bills ridiculously above the value of the equipment .You have to be prepared to repair this old iron your self ,Final story I cant trust these dealers and don't even like buying new stuff from these clowns !!I just took a 750J LT in for an up grade and went to show them the dealer why they ripped the previous owner off and what the problem really was .The head mechanic asked me how I fixed the dozer [after laughing at me for buying a lemon]he proceeded in turning his back on me and walking the other direction so I skipped the subject and talked a bit of crap then walked out They didn't even notice and Don't care They just don't care!You don't take a 450B to the dealers to fix it there isn't even any one around to remember how to fix them Get it the heck out of there!! .Digitup.

[srshaw3]

Get it the heck out of there!! .Digitup.

if I get it out of there, it will sit in a field. I do not have the facilities to fix it. I did search for service elsewhere before bringing it in, but found no better option.

I appreciate your thoughts, but it really doesn't give me a direction to go in.

[kedorland]

My first statement I need to offer is I know nothing of JD Crawlers. I have a 75 450C that, as of this week, I am just learning on. With that said my thoughts are...that during the Ag depression in the 80s....dealership after dealership closed, and the result of that was countless gifted mechanics were put out on the street. Most are now retired or dead. With the land now making a little money some dealerships are growing and building. The newer trained mechanics are schooled on 90s or newer equipment. One of the first things they'd expect to do is look for a port to plug in their laptop.

If it were me I'd look around for the oldest JD construction mechanic you can find.

Wish you the best of luck.

[digitup2]

Find some contractors with older Deere machines see what they do for repairs check around and find out what they do for parts ,shop rental and other stuff like mobile mechanics and retired knuckle busters they are out there I don't want to be mean but Deere Industrial came through that same repression and They didn't always retain the most energetic and smartest My local Deere industrial dealership has guys that can't find any thing unless they can see it on the computer they are lost look around do some talking and see what others in the area do I have been in that position before I know the feeling.Digitup.

[LeonardL]

Where are you located? I don't want to come off as offensive but if you would give us a general location where you live you might just find someone near you that is willing to help.
I'm retired and look for jobs like this to take on once in a while. I know I'm not the only one out here!
I understand your frustration with Deere! However you have to remember there is a lot of overhead that goes into running and keeping open a dealership. The service department is basically how they do it. That and parts sales.
Even in the best of times, your sales department will not keep the doors open. Although they will try to make you believe they do.
I do agree that they don't always keep the best and the brightest. I also agree that most if not all of these techs couldn't diagnose their way out of a wet paper bag. I just recently learned that the hard way by making the mistake of calling and asking if they had procedure for something I had never done. What I got was this, "When you figure that out you can tell us how to do it" So! I figured it out myself by using my brain and not a computer! And No! I haven't called them back!
They don't teach the basics anymore in our tech schools. Everything has gone digital and computerized and without a lap top they can't fix the machines. Even with the lap top telling them what to fix they don't have the mechanical aptitude to use the tools needed to fix the problem. Good mechanics bend wrenches!
I personally have had these dealers call me asking how to fix some of these older machines. They simply didn't have anyone around that could fix the problems. They would have me talk to their techs and it was apparent that they didn't even know the basic function of the equipment they were working on. All they could say was, I cant plug my computer in to tell me what is wrong!
My point is for you to take the advice already given to you. Look around and go by some of these parts stores and construction companies and ask who does this kind of work. I think you will find the help you need. You will find some old guy still bending wrenches and doing it for a lot less than Deere will charge you. And he will know what is wrong without a lap top to tell him.
I like to think of us old guys as being like the old veteran ball players that still have the knowledge but have been passed up by all the rookies. We still have what it takes we are just older and wiser and maybe a little slower!

[doc40c]

Hi srshaw3, sounds like your in a difficult situation! I'll through in my 2 cents. Sounds like you only have a few small projects you want to complete then sell the dozer. I'd start by getting a local contractor over and show him what you want and give you a price. It may surprize you one way or another ( either much lower or much higher than you anticipated!). Either way at least you have a number to start with so you can do some comparisons as whether to hire it out or try fixing that 450B. Secondly, as has been already suggested, find a trusted mechanic to give you an estimate(parts and labor) of what the machine needs(tell him to make the estimate high because he is going to find other things that need attention after he gets into it. Now add up the numbers(initial dozer cost, parts labor, ongoing maintenance and fuel ect.) and see what that number is. Say this number is 12000. Now try to determine a reasonable resale value( units condition and your location will be major factors). Now compare the two numbers. If you've got 12000 invested and resale is 10000 then your projects costs are about 2000( plus many headaches, but also much satisfaction doing it yourself!). compare this number to the one the contractor gave you and then make a decision! Good luck with your journey! I heard this saying once on a home improvement show,"Sometimes the best tool in your toolbox is your checkbook". As a do it yourself kind of person I hate that saying but sometimes I do follow it! Randy from Michigan

[srshaw3]

Thanks for the many thoughts.

As I initially provided, I looked around before bringing it to the dealer and found no other option. The dozer is @60 miles from me, now near the land I want to use it on, and I am not familiar with any people or businesses in the area.

I did have a local contractor out to look at my projects, and he was quickly getting into 10s of thousands of dollars to do the work, so if I can do it myself, I could save quite a bit. Of course I have to give up the time to do so, but in theory I add a skill set and can do it as I want it done.

If someone is interested in doing the work, it is located in South Western New Hampshire, or if someone has a good 450B in that area. I bought low enough, that if I just migrated the back hoe to another 450B, I would still be doing ok.

I bought 40 acres with a rough driveway that needs some drainage work, and some earth movement. I also want a septic system and to prepare the site for a foundation.

At this point, it is less a question of whether I will get the money back, and more a question of whether I will be throwing good money after bad money spent.

Thank again for all the thoughts.

[teighs]

Maybe give these guys a call and see if they know of someone in the area that fixes old deeres (someone they sell parts to)
http://pbhequipment.com/

[srshaw3]

Thank you all for the thoughts, I spoke with Andrew yesterday, after he sent a PM and he mentioned the parts place as well. I know I talked with them before I bought the 450B.

Andrew also found another 450B I was considering when I purchased this one. That 450B does not have a steering issue and lacks a backhoe. So if I could make the right deal, I might consider buying it, and moving the backhoe to it from the one I have now. Then I would have a "parts" 450B as well

I also send the following in an email to the service manager at the JD Dealer, and will see what I get for a response:

>>>>>
I am interesting in investigating the hydraulic issues with the 450B. Can you provide an estimate on the time to diagnose what is need in parts and labor?

I anticipate I will want the steering clutches changes, as was originally planned when I had the 450B brought in.
1. Are you still agreeable on the 8-12 man hour estimate per side to change the steering clutches?
2. I understand that you estimate another 4 hours to take the backhoe off and put it back one, correct?
3. My understanding is the estimate for all of the above labor is 20-28 hours of labor at $70 per hour, so $1680 to $1960.

Once we are in sync on all of this, I would order the steering clutches kits, probably via the US manufacturer, and have them shipped directly to you.
This Kit Contains 1 New Pressure Plate AT18416 (made in USA), 1 New Brake Band AT129806 & AT129807 (made in USA), 8 New Fiber Steering Disc T20716,
7 New Steel Steering Disc T31732 (made in USA) and 1 new Throwout Bearing AT17464T (Made in USA).
I would ask that you keep them organized, so if there is an issue, I can return them, as they have a 100% satisfaction guaranty.

I just don’t see why you told me it could be 100 hours for the work required. Do you have a list of services with estimated hours that show this total?
If you have decided this is work you do not want to do, please let me know, so we can consider other options.

Thank you.
<<<<<

[Tigerhaze]

Srshaw3-

I'll go in and throw in my $0.02, although Leonard L and Digitup covered it pretty well for you.

First of all, you should really get an operator's manual and a service manual if you are going to own a 450B. Even if you don't do the work yourself, they are very helpful in explaining the crawler's systems so you can talk better with potential mechanics.

There are people on this board that are in your general area that may be able to give you an idea of who works on older JDcrawlers- specifically I believe KenP has a 350 and is in NH so may know someone, and Jdemaris is in nearby NY State and is a former JD mechanic so may know someone. I hate to point them out specifically but you may want to PM them and see what they think for a repairman.

Second, I want to make sure that you know that if you have a 450B, then it has mechanical steering clutches so hydraulics (other than possibly power steering assist) is not keeping your machine from steering. it is also not clear to me what hydraulics are bad- is it the loader hydraulics? That is what the backhoe would plumb into- if pressure is low in the loader hydraulics then it would also be low in the backhoe. It may simply be water in the system. I'm not sure what they are quoting you for 4 hours for the backhoe- the quick disconnects only take 5-10 minutes to remove the backhoe and to reattach so obviously they are quoting additional work- hose repair? I would have disconnected the backhoe first before trying todiagnose where the hydraulic issue was in the loader hydraulics system- not sure if the dealer did this.

The steering clutches do take some repair time to replace but first would be an adjustment check before presuming that replacement is needed- again it is not clear if the dealer did this properly.

If you decide to get another 450B, please have someone who is knowledgable about them check it out for you. You don't want to buy yet another parts machine. Also realize that you would have to switch over the hoe bracket because the other 450B may not be set up with that bracket. there are also posts on here that describe what to look for in a 450B before purchase.

Third, another option (that I used myself) was to rent a crawler loader and do the work yourself. This option is a little more difficult because most rental places require $1M liability insurance and are reluctant to rent to non-contractors, but one place that did is the CAT Store. The last time I checked (a couple of years ago) you could rent a 939 HST crawler loader for around $2000 for 40 hours, including insurance. Fuel would be extra though (drinks about 40 gallons in 8 hours). You can get a lot of work done in 40 hours with that machine and they are fairly easy to learn since they are joystick controlled. However you will find a little bit of a learning curve if you have never operated a cralwer, so don't expect professional results the first time. I ended up renting that crawler for my larger work and then buying an older 2010 crawler for minor cut/fill and maintenance work. I think you have discovered the old adage "there is no such thing as a cheap crawler"

We don't mind helping you, but you can help yourself by getting those manuals and reading some of the great posts using the search function.

[srshaw3]

Another great response, thank you.

I knew buying it as I did was a risk. Like all things in life risks are calculated, and part of the calculation is to consider the unknowns. I knew I had spent limited time investigating, but spending more time was not a good investment at that time, considering the value it would reduce the risk by.

I currently *am* where I thought I might be. It would have been wonderful if it was cheap, but that was a very low percentage bet

I just need to understand why the dealer decided to say it could take "100 hours". Everything I have found is that perhaps 40 hours including repairing hydraulic issues might be realistic.

I did well understand the steering clutch issue before purchase. I had received an estimate from a dealer, identified a source of parts, and had confirmed the dealer would use those parts. The wrinkle in this is the "100 hour" comment from the dealer.

I fully expect that I will need someone else to do the finish work. I might get that good at using the dozer, but that is related to seat time, so is not too good of a bet. I think there is plenty of rough work for me to do. I can envision maintaining the logging roads a bit, even if that just means running up and down them once in a while.

[andregrondin]

Another great response, thank you.

I knew buying it as I did was a risk. Like all things in life risks are calculated, and part of the calculation is to consider the unknowns. I knew I had spent limited time investigating, but spending more time was not a good investment at that time, considering the value it would reduce the risk by.

I currently *am* where I thought I might be. It would have been wonderful if it was cheap, but that was a very low percentage bet

I just need to understand why the dealer decided to say it could take "100 hours". Everything I have found is that perhaps 40 hours including repairing hydraulic issues might be realistic.



I did well understand the steering clutch issue before purchase. I had received an estimate from a dealer, identified a source of parts, and had confirmed the dealer would use those parts. The wrinkle in this is the "100 hour" comment from the dealer.

I fully expect that I will need someone else to do the finish work. I might get that good at using the dozer, but that is related to seat time, so is not too good of a bet. I think there is plenty of rough work for me to do. I can envision maintaining the logging roads a bit, even if that just means running up and down them once in a while.

To rip you off knowing that you knew not much about machinery or wanting to buy it from you at cheap price refurbish the beast and sell it with profit ! remember SHARKS are tought beast they don't all live in water !!

[Tigerhaze]

I did well understand the steering clutch issue before purchase. I had received an estimate from a dealer, identified a source of parts, and had confirmed the dealer would use those parts. The wrinkle in this is the "100 hour" comment from the dealer.

I think it might take me 100 hours to do the things you have discussed with the dealer, given my lack of a shop, dealer tools, and time. However your estimate seems more reasonable for an experienced mechanic with the proper shop and tools. They seem to be hedging their bets because of the reasons Digitup and Leonard mentioned- they really don't know what it will take because they are not used to working on older mechanical equipment without computer diagnostics.

I fully expect that I will need someone else to do the finish work. I might get that good at using the dozer, but that is related to seat time, so is not too good of a bet. I think there is plenty of rough work for me to do. I can envision maintaining the logging roads a bit, even if that just means running up and down them once in a while.

You can probably do a passable job after the first 40 hours of operation- it really just takes a lot of practice to get good at the eye/hand coordination you need with the steering levers and loader/blade hydraulics to get good results without a lot of rework and backblading. I now have several hundred hours of seat time in my 2010 and while my results are much better now it still doesn't compare to a seasoned operator.

As for finish work, I don't even like doing it with the crawler. I rough in my grades with the crawler and then finish grade with my Bobcats , my 8N tractor with 3 point angled straight blade, and vibratory roller compactor. Some people don't have those options but it does make for a much better result.

That reminds me- I need to do some photo updates at some point to show my road building progress. It had progressed quite a bit since my last update.

[srshaw3]

Here is an update to my scenario:

I have been waiting for a while for further quotes from the dealer.

I checked with an independent firm, that provided a quote for the work, more or less in line, with what I initially expected for costs.

As I still hadn't heard back from the dealer, I found a local person I had met to move the machine, and was ready to do so.

I emailed the dealer, advising that there wasn't much movement on the project, so I thought it best to have the machine serviced elsewhere (and that in the future perhaps I would have a more appropriate machine to service).

I quickly received a response from the dealer advising that it would be a shame to move it elsewhere as it was already there. He also advised that he was able to commit to the original estimate as we discussed on the phone and would review the hydraulics for 3 hours of labor.

I have responded that I want it clarified that he is committing to doing the steering clutch changes for a fixed cost of 24 hours.

I am interested in whether the forum members think 3 hours is a reasonable amount of time to diagnose why the hydraulics are "weak".

I am tempted to go forward with this, and buy the parts from the other local service firm, and when the unit is ready to move, I can still use the local person I identified.

Thanks to everyone here who replied to this post