Help with a JD450 with motovational problems.

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Cle Elum John
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Help with a JD450 with motovational problems.

Post by Cle Elum John » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:31 pm

Hi
I am new to the forum and have just purchased a 450 for personal use. The engine runs well, the 4way bucket and rake all work well. It has an HLR transmission and it will not go into gear. The prior owner said to was working fine, he got off it and let it idle for a quarter hour, after that it would not go into gear. If he can be believed, it did not happen under load. He said that when his wife was listening. Smart guys don't lie about ANYTHING in front of their wives.

Things I have done and that I know:

There is no pressure to the control manifold. Needle does not move, even a little.
It makes absolutely no odd noises. I have put a stethoscope on it.
It rolls.
There is no pressure to the relief valve at the transmission pump.
I cleaned the pickup filter in the transmission case, it was filthy. Most of the stuff was clutch fluff, a lot of paint chips, but no metal. It did not look like it was completely blocked. The oil looked pretty clean.
New Hy Guard fluid. None of this helped.

I tried to adjust the clutch. The clutch is very light over its entire stroke and has no obvious free play. I can see the throw out assembly moving through the bell housing port. I can see where it contacts the fingers and there is no addition force when pushed further. It is light all the way to the floor. The prior owner said it was always that way. I can't hear anything aft of the clutch spinning when the clutch is out. If it was stuck in the declutched mode or if the clutch disk is spun that would explain a lot. The transmission pump is aft of the clutch so there would be no pressure.

Questions:
Is there a way of checking that clutch is actually engaging and spinning up the shaft? I was thinking of using a snake camera but I don't know what to look for. The pressure plate is spinning, I am not so sure about the clutch disk and shaft. I could not see the shaft.
Does the 450 have a very light feeling clutch? It feels like freeplay all the way to the floor. I can push it too the floor with my hand with very little effort.
Is there a way to free up a clutch stuck disengaged? I have always have them stuck engaged. I can deal with that.

Is there anything else I should be checking??

Thanks for any help.
John
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Re: Help with a JD450 with motovational problems.

Post by NWJD fan » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:02 am

A few years back I was running my 450C dozer actually just driving back to its parking spot when it did the most gentle soft declutch and coast to a stop totally uncommanded by me. On my machine the lunch pedal works in 2 stages. The first stage is hydraulic declutching (basically opening a valve to depressurize clutches in the HLR) and the second stage is conventional mechanical declutching of engine driven clutch and pressure plate. In my case a piece of linkage between clutch pedal and HLR failed bringing the machine to a standstill.

Cle Elum John
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Re: Help with a JD450 with motovational problems.

Post by Cle Elum John » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:28 am

If I understand it right those HLR's are very similar. That was one the things I need to check. I had it in the back of my mind when I was trying to adjust the clutch engagement but did not get further than trying to set the mechanical freeplay. I am going to check that next time I get my hands dirty.

Another question, is it obvious when the clutch pedal travel free play is reached and the clutch starts to disengage? Mine contacts the fingers but I can feel no extra force from the clutch springs. The throwout bearing is moving but there is no additional pedal effort. That is why I am thinking that it might be the clutch failing to engage. Its like the clutch pressure springs broke.

Thanks for the help
John
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77 Ford
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Re: Help with a JD450 with motovational problems.

Post by 77 Ford » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:33 am

I can feel a noticeable resistance on my 450c when the clutch is close to the floor. It's very similar to a pickup to me with old school borg warner clutch. I still clutch when I change from F to R or vice versa even though I know I don't have to (do a search if you want to read the clutchers vs the non clutchers they are some interesting reads). If I work the machine all day I think my foot is about to fall off.....
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Cle Elum John
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Re: Help with a JD450 with motovational problems.

Post by Cle Elum John » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:43 am

That's good information; no resistance until the end of stroke. I have never driven it while it was working so I have no idea. To me it feels funny.
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pondhogvt
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Re: Help with a JD450 with motovational problems.

Post by pondhogvt » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:25 pm

Hi, I see this problem a lot lately.. it is more complicated then described so far,, do you have a parts manual and or tech manual.. if you do it will be easier to describe to you what to do.. it is not purely a mechanical adjustment,, not just a matter of the clutch working or not working,,, the mechanical part of the clutch release is interconnected to a hydraulic release valve,, everything has to be adjusted correctly to work.. I have seen trannys that appeared dead and by finally adjusting correctly all of a sudden come right back to life and work perfectly...

1st, step adjust clutch per manual.. most older 450's have a pto shaft so just start the dozer and see if it is turning..

there is also a pin that falls out of the clutch shift rod in the bell housing,, many times if a guy has a perfect running dozer with no symptoms of problems and goes to lunch and comes back to work to a dead dozer,, if all was well and then suddenly just stops.. my guess is the pin fell out or part way out so it is always releasing the pressure.. hence tranny appears dead...

good part nothing broke... bad part have to pull the motor to put the pin back in and it will make you cusss even then... be sure of the symptoms when describing.. this pin thing is usually when the tranny goes from perfect to dead..

if there was prior slipping, etc. it could be a totally different problem.
1.slipping due to front tranny seal leaking oil on main clutch or clutch worn out
2.slipping due to not enough oil pressure. needs adjustment,, hlr manifold leaking,, internal leaks ETc..
3. slipping due to worn out clutch pak...
you see it all depends whar the symptoms are to point you in right direction.. I could send you a picture of the pin thing if you e-mail me.. I do not know how to load pics here.. goodluck Mark e-mail= pondhogvt@gmail.com
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Cle Elum John
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Re: Help with a JD450 with motivational problems.

Post by Cle Elum John » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:51 pm

Thanks for the reply Mark.

I have the manuals and have given it some thought. I think we are headed in the same direction. I had it narrowed down to a couple of things. Bad clutch always slipping and not getting power to the trans pump. A bad transmission pump. A broken transmission input shaft. I only got as far as trying to adjust the mechanical side of the engine clutch. I could not feel the free play or the clutch disengaging. It was slack for the whole pedal stroke. It does have a lever for a PTO but I am pretty sure that is the only PTO part on the dozer. I took a quick look for a PTO output shaft and didn't notice it. The transmission has no pressure at the relief valve. I pulled the shims, spring and valve and there was no fountain of fluid. It has no pressure at the tap under the shifter either.

I have pretty much resigned myself to pulling the engine and following things back until I find the problem(s). Clutch, input shaft, pump, in that order. I will pay particular attention to that clutch pin, that is something I haven't thought of. Is there a way of upgrading that pin to prevent a future problem? Also, can I tell if it is disconnected by pulling at the adjustment rod at the access port on the bell housing?

I am going to take a run at it tomorrow. I will adjust the clutch as you suggest, including the pressure release. I will see if there is anything more I can do without major disassembly. It's outside, up in the mountains, its been snowing a little and I am expecting real snow pretty soon. It may have to wait until spring, I don't want it in pieces all winter. I will get as far as I can in the meantime.

Thanks for the help. That thing about the clutch pin is a new wrinkle. I am hoping to see whatever pictures you have. I will send an EMail.

Thanks again for the effort
John
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pondhogvt
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Re: Help with a JD450 with motovational problems.

Post by pondhogvt » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:08 pm

Cle , I have a transmission all out so I will show you the pin excactly as it sits in the dozer.. bear in mind I have removed the clutch housing or bell housing as I call it,, so it looks more exposed.. but if you have to fix it and pull the engine the bell housing remains and that makes it very difficult to pound the pin back in as it sits at the front of the tranny which is the back of the bellhousing... granted if you remove the bellhousing also it is an easy fix but sometimes removing the housing is harder then taking out the engine...

you cannot see the pin thru the rubber plug hole in housing,, but when you look in the hole you see the bracket that has a spring on it from the clutch throw out bearing with a nut and you turn this nut to adjust the clutch,, well that little bracket looks like it swivels on a rod which it does,, have someone push the clutch while you watch it all moves,,, but it is not just a holding rod it is a shaft that goes into the front of tranny,, it is pinned to that bracket with spring and nut you see,,, so when you push the clutch the rod also turns inside the tranny and releases pressure,, if pin falls out you still see the throwout bearing being released but it is not turning the pressure valve,, and it always falls out on the no pressure or release side.. even with the pictures it will be hard to see but atleast you know the area to look at... pics tomorrow best of luck .. Mark.
350 loader,350c dozer winch and arch,450c winch and arch,450e winch and arch,D37p komatsu lgp dozer,D85 Komatsu dozer,D8k Caterpillar.

Cle Elum John
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Re: Help with a JD450 with motovational problems.

Post by Cle Elum John » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:47 am

Thanks again. I also emailed a personal message.
John
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Cle Elum John
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Re: Help with a JD450 with motovational problems.

Post by Cle Elum John » Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:16 pm

Just to bring this thread to a close I found the problem. I used a inspection camera and found that the clutch was not spinning the transmission input shaft. It's a little hard to tell but it looks like clutch disk may be spinning but the clutch disk hub is not. The hub and input shaft look ok. This is good, I was hoping for an excuse to pull the engine off.
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