Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

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450FiveString
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by 450FiveString » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:30 am

I just changed the filters in my straight 450 and have exactly the same problem. The filters I took off had no markings so I don't know the brand. I put Baldwin filters on and they have holes in the top just like those I took off. I've got fuel coming out of the mechanical pump and the line is clear to the filter housing. Filter #1 fills the glass bowl partially but nothing comes out of the bleeder. When I took off the original filters there were 2 seals on top. It appears that the one in the housing groove was never removed.

Jason37756
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jason37756 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:48 pm

Jim B wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:53 am
Hi Stan,

I don't think there is a plug in the housing. On the housing for the single filter on my 2030 the outlet for the fuel to the injection pump and the bleeder screw are in the same chamber, basically the whole area at the top of the filter element. They are completely separate ports, about 90 degrees apart, visible when the filter is off. If you plug the outlet, the bleeder still works. As long as fuel gets to the top of the element both the bleeder and outlet see filtered fuel at the same time. I expect the two filter housing is the same from the location of the bleeder screws and the outlet from the second filter in their photo, and memory. NAPA and Wix filters have slots around the outer circumference of the element for the fuel to come up through, not holes in the top like some others. They also have a recess, around the circumference, that the slots are in. The recess looks like it should have a gasket in it, but it should not. After studying my filter arrangement, with it apart, a gasket in that recess will seal of the filter element outlet slots and will stop fuel from reaching both the bleeder and outlet. I still have to believe the gasket is inside the element covering the slots, not up in the groove of the housing it belongs in. I like to use a little grease to hold the gasket up in the groove of the housing, so it doesn't slip down inside the filter during installation and cause a problem. In re-reading everything from the beginning their post on 8/23, where they asked you about smaller gaskets, reads like they were fitting the gasket inside the lip of the filter, not up into the housing head.

Jim

Experienced this today...I replaced older 3166 napa filters with new wix 33166 and found the wix filters had to have the third seal to allow fuel to pass thru to the second filter. I'm not sure if wix has changed their design, but they would not work without the seal going into the filter housing.

Jason

Jim B
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jim B » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:41 pm

I would need to see what your "new" Wix 33166 filters look like. The ones I got a couple weeks ago were the same as they have been, only the printing on the box was different on these. Wix has made almost all of NAPA's filters for years. Generally you only have to drop the first number from the Wix part number to get the NAPA part number (Wix 33166 is NAPA 3166). As I noted in this post originally I have used these Wix/NAPA filters for years.

To clarify nomenclature. The filter housing is mounted to the engine. The filter element is what gets replaced. The bowl is located at the bottom of the element and gets re-used.

There should be one seal in the groove in the underside of the filter housing which the rim of the filter element fits to. There should be one seal around the step at the bottom of the filter element to seal it to the bowl. The third seal is in the box for the applications that use a water separator between the filter element and bowl.

It is common for the top seal to slip into the recess that is around the inside of the top rim of the filter element itself if the old seal is not removed from the groove of If the new one isn't stuck in the groove with some grease. If a seal gets into that recess it covers the slots the fuel exits the top of the element through and fuel will not bleed or pass to the second filter.

For both filters, did you remove the old seal from the groove in the housing and stick one new one in each groove with some grease? Without the water separator option, the third seal is not needed.

Jim

Jason37756
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jason37756 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:31 pm

I've been running the same 3166 filters for 3 yrs and there was no seal in the either side of the housing. When i removed the old filters i did not notice how the housing seals could slip into the top groove of the filters. When I placed the new filters in I figured the housing seals were not needed due to the seal I placed in the top groove of the filter, but could not get fuel to pass thru the housing. this makes sense based on your explanation.

I remembered reading this post a few months back and thought I would try the housing seals and fuel flowed easily thru the housing, filters, and over to the injection pump easily with the finger pump. The filters are probably the exact same, but there was definitely a no flow without the seal. Again makes sense...

After re-reading you previous post I realized you were talking about a single filter on a 2030, so i would assume the set up is different. Now I am a bit confused since I thought my problem was solved. I placed a seal in the housing, a seal in the top groove of the filter, and a seal in the bottom.

If that top seal, in the filter, is a no no how in the pickle is it working now? And am I damaging my fuel pump with too much/ potential resistance?

Jason

Jim B
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jim B » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:12 pm

The seal placement on a double element housing is the same as a single element housing. The only difference is the fuel is internally ported to the second filter in a double filter housing vs going out a line to the injection pump on a single element housing.

You are apparently luckier than most people, and the transfer pump is pushing fuel past the seal you put in the element recess.

Image

Image

Image

And this is what I mean by a filter set up with a water separator, which yours shouldn't have, that uses the third seal.

Image
Last edited by Jim B on Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jason37756
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jason37756 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:33 pm

Awesome information...

Owning a piece of equipment is a lot like reading the bible...the more I know the more I realize how much I need to learn.

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good, but I'll be pulling those seals out tomorrow.

Jason

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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jason_haha » Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:31 pm

Napa fuel filters do not have the holes drilled in them use genuine John Deere same price and will fix your problem I posted a video on you tube “ Napa fuel filters no fuel flow and why” or you can drill holes in the top of the Napa filters and make them work

Jim B
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jim B » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:26 pm

There is nothing wrong with the WIX/NAPA filters. The problem is improper installation. I don't think drilling holes in them is a prudent thing to do and would not suggest doing it, the top is the outlet. Drilling will most likely leave/put chips in the filter media at the outlet side of the filter. Where will those end up if they migrate downstream? In the injection pump. No thanks to that scenario. JMHO

Jason37756
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jason37756 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:16 pm

Improper install is usually what gets us on most things. Funny thing is that housing gasket slips down onto the filter and one doesn't realize it. Then upon install you're thinking that gasket fits nicely in the top of the filter....wrong.

I do believe the wix filter should be changed, but we all live and learn.

Jason
Last edited by Jason37756 on Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jim B
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jim B » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:46 pm

3 or 4 dabs of grease holds the housing gasket up in the housing instead of trying to balance and align it on the rim of the element. Works for all the filters. Never could figure out people trying to put the filter up with the gasket balancing on the element rim, regardless of manufacturer.

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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jason_haha » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:51 am

DP1000 New Fuel Filter Adaptor Converts from Cartridge Type CAV Element
Has anyone installed this kit and will it work with the fuel filter on the straight 450? to swap to spin on fuel filters.

Jason37756
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jason37756 » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:31 am

I've never used one, but they should work.

If I was interested in changing over to a spin on I would try to find a complete housing and simply run the fuel lines in/out and be done. An adaptor might take up too much room and create more joints for potential leaks (air/fuel). A one piece housing eliminates the excess.

One of my kubota tractors has the spin on...seems nice to not have to deal with all the components of the current cav type filters, but it's no biggie either way.

Jason

Jim B
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jim B » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:41 am

I have one of those kits on a different piece of equipment (installed as an added filter) that has more room under the filter. I believe room may be an issue with those kits on a 350 or 450. With a Baldwin BF-587-D filter (same catalog length as the FF1400, FF1480, Wix 33472) it is about 7 inches from the CAV filter base to the end of the adapter kit and filter so allowing another 1 inch to change a filter, about 8 inches would be needed for the filter change, measuring from the where the filters go into the base now. The FF3331 (Wix 33192) they list is about 1 inch shorter so, I would say you need to allow 7" for a change.

As I posted before, a few dabs of grease hold the seals in the housing while you put the filter up, don't try to balance the seal on the rim of the filter element while you install it. You can use a few dabs of grease on the bowl seal as well if, you want.

If you want to change it find a used base and lines for the rectangular glass filter, used on the later 350s/450s. and change over to that.

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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jason_haha » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:40 pm

I’m trying to get away from the glass all together they say the entire unit with filter installed is an inch shorter just didn’t know if that exact kit would work it wasn’t crossed referenced and not all cav filters are the same my f4000 has a different through screw

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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jim B » Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:54 pm

After further investigation it appears they don't have one with the right center bolt arrangement for the style housing JD used. As far as it being an inch shorter than the original, they must have been comparing to the style with the aluminum separator between the element and glass bowl. It sure isn't shorter than the one on my 2030, which is a single set up like the dual ones on the 350s/450s. You say F4000. I take that to mean Ford 4000. Those housings use the bolt that goes through the top of the housing, which the adapter kit will work with.

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