Purchase questions
Purchase questions
Hello everyone. I'm considering getting a 350 or 450 for some tree removal and road maintenance I have at my 11 acre cabin property. I have been reading all I can on this forum to make myself a little familiar with crawlers. I have worked on and operated other heavy equipment but not a crawler.
Anyway, I have a couple questions. I was reading up on checking undercarriage wear and was wondering when you do the 5 pin measurement on the track chain is that center to center?
Next, if I understand correctly these machines could have no pto, winch shaft or a pto. If that's the correct could you run something off the winch shaft if you found a crawler with that setup? Reason I ask I want to run a pto wood chipper, was thinking if I could expand my search to winch shaft or pto that might make the pool of machines to pick from a little larger.
Anyway, I have a couple questions. I was reading up on checking undercarriage wear and was wondering when you do the 5 pin measurement on the track chain is that center to center?
Next, if I understand correctly these machines could have no pto, winch shaft or a pto. If that's the correct could you run something off the winch shaft if you found a crawler with that setup? Reason I ask I want to run a pto wood chipper, was thinking if I could expand my search to winch shaft or pto that might make the pool of machines to pick from a little larger.
Re: Purchase questions
Welcome to the board.
The measurement is normally taken from the front edge of the 1st pin to the front edge of the 5th pin. So yes, center to center would be the same. It is easier to use the pin edge than to try to find center. Machining marks on the ends of the pins, that might have shown center, are usually worn off. There is a Dresser document, "Understanding Undercarriage", posted by Stan Disbrow on the FAQ Board that does and excellent job of describing undercarriage, terminology, types, what to look for, etc.. It also tells how to measure an undercarriage, tools needed, and has some illustrations. Studying that will help you understand better. Even though it is intended for a Dresser crawler, the principles and information in it is pretty standard on undercarriages. It is 28th down or 23rd up on the first page, if I counted right.
The winches on the models you are talking about use a power shaft that is different from a pto shaft. Most do not have a disconnect for the winch shafts that the PTO shafts have, with few exceptions the winches on the 350s and 450s are live all the time. Some gearing in the transmission may be different. The winch shaft is shorter and has different splines. PTO shafts can be installed into them, but depending on parts required it might not be practical. Some parts may well be No Longer Available from JD and could take a good bit of salvage yard searching. Those are my thoughts; someone will likely be along with more info. There are several posts here about changing to or adding a winch shaft.
The measurement is normally taken from the front edge of the 1st pin to the front edge of the 5th pin. So yes, center to center would be the same. It is easier to use the pin edge than to try to find center. Machining marks on the ends of the pins, that might have shown center, are usually worn off. There is a Dresser document, "Understanding Undercarriage", posted by Stan Disbrow on the FAQ Board that does and excellent job of describing undercarriage, terminology, types, what to look for, etc.. It also tells how to measure an undercarriage, tools needed, and has some illustrations. Studying that will help you understand better. Even though it is intended for a Dresser crawler, the principles and information in it is pretty standard on undercarriages. It is 28th down or 23rd up on the first page, if I counted right.
The winches on the models you are talking about use a power shaft that is different from a pto shaft. Most do not have a disconnect for the winch shafts that the PTO shafts have, with few exceptions the winches on the 350s and 450s are live all the time. Some gearing in the transmission may be different. The winch shaft is shorter and has different splines. PTO shafts can be installed into them, but depending on parts required it might not be practical. Some parts may well be No Longer Available from JD and could take a good bit of salvage yard searching. Those are my thoughts; someone will likely be along with more info. There are several posts here about changing to or adding a winch shaft.
Re: Purchase questions
Thanks for the reply. I read the track wear document you are referring to i just couldnt find out where you measure from but you cleared that up thanks.
As far as the winch shaft, are you saying it turns even in neutral with the machine idling? If so i guess thats not a great option since you would have to shut the crawler down, hookup the pto to the brush chipper (assuming you can find the right adapters to get from the winch shaft to the chipper pto) then start the crawler with the coupled load of the chipper? Again my purpose was to just increase the pool of for sale crawlers to help with shopping.
As far as the winch shaft, are you saying it turns even in neutral with the machine idling? If so i guess thats not a great option since you would have to shut the crawler down, hookup the pto to the brush chipper (assuming you can find the right adapters to get from the winch shaft to the chipper pto) then start the crawler with the coupled load of the chipper? Again my purpose was to just increase the pool of for sale crawlers to help with shopping.
Re: Purchase questions
Page 37, Internal pin and bushing wear (4 links), is where they tell about measuring from/to the pin edges.
Yes, you would have to shut it off, there is no disconnect on many winch shafts. There may have been some with disconnects, but not common as I understand it. The disconnect would have to be added in the transmission. The winch shaft is different than the pto shaft and need to be changed. I don't think there were any adapters to PTO. Also in some cases gears in the transmission would have to change to get the right speed. Unless you want to start with a project, only buy one having a working PTO. Make sure it is 540 rpm as well. I don't think I've seen a 1000 rpm chipper, not to say they don't make them.
Yes, you would have to shut it off, there is no disconnect on many winch shafts. There may have been some with disconnects, but not common as I understand it. The disconnect would have to be added in the transmission. The winch shaft is different than the pto shaft and need to be changed. I don't think there were any adapters to PTO. Also in some cases gears in the transmission would have to change to get the right speed. Unless you want to start with a project, only buy one having a working PTO. Make sure it is 540 rpm as well. I don't think I've seen a 1000 rpm chipper, not to say they don't make them.
- CuttingEdge
- 2010 crawler
- Posts: 534
- Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:13 pm
- Location: Maine
Re: Purchase questions
You can hook up a PTO for a John Deere 350 pretty easy and inexpensively. I had a 350D bulldozer and hooked up a 3 point hitch and did just that. I ended up using a fertilizer spreader on it, and a regular tractor type winch. I see no reason at all why you could not put a pto chipper on it.
If your tractor does not already have a pto shaft, you just have to buy the back plate that has the bearing in it, and then the stub shaft. I bought mine for $250. You unbolt the plate on the back of your tractor, pull it off, then reseal the plate with bearing with new gasket sealer, and bolt it back on. Replace the oil lost on the change-out with new oil, and you have a pto. (This is about a half-hour job)
This gives you 20 splines I think, but you need 6 splines, but any local tractor dealership has the adapters you need, so just buy one of those, which is about $15, and you have a six spline PTO.
Then you just weld up some brackets to make the 3 point hitch. I used 3 inch channel iron. In my case the 3 point hitch was fixed, but for a chipper you do not need it to go up and down either. You do need a pto shaft between the new bulldozer pto stub shaft with adapter, and the chipper, and it must slide a bit. This allows any flex in the chipper to not impart end-thrust on your transmissions parts of the bulldozer...
As for the pto control, this is a non-issue because you can shut off, or turn on, the pto by using the reverser. Your wood chipper will be rotating if you take it from point a to point b, which is not really a big deal if you are going from brush pile to brush pile. If you are going to be bulldozing all day, and not using your chipper, just remove the pto shaft. You do not have to take off the chipper, just slide the pto shaft back.
I admit a shifter in the transmission would be great, but it was not that big of a deal to not have it, and having a bulldozer with pto and 3 point hitch was incredible.
If your tractor does not already have a pto shaft, you just have to buy the back plate that has the bearing in it, and then the stub shaft. I bought mine for $250. You unbolt the plate on the back of your tractor, pull it off, then reseal the plate with bearing with new gasket sealer, and bolt it back on. Replace the oil lost on the change-out with new oil, and you have a pto. (This is about a half-hour job)
This gives you 20 splines I think, but you need 6 splines, but any local tractor dealership has the adapters you need, so just buy one of those, which is about $15, and you have a six spline PTO.
Then you just weld up some brackets to make the 3 point hitch. I used 3 inch channel iron. In my case the 3 point hitch was fixed, but for a chipper you do not need it to go up and down either. You do need a pto shaft between the new bulldozer pto stub shaft with adapter, and the chipper, and it must slide a bit. This allows any flex in the chipper to not impart end-thrust on your transmissions parts of the bulldozer...
As for the pto control, this is a non-issue because you can shut off, or turn on, the pto by using the reverser. Your wood chipper will be rotating if you take it from point a to point b, which is not really a big deal if you are going from brush pile to brush pile. If you are going to be bulldozing all day, and not using your chipper, just remove the pto shaft. You do not have to take off the chipper, just slide the pto shaft back.
I admit a shifter in the transmission would be great, but it was not that big of a deal to not have it, and having a bulldozer with pto and 3 point hitch was incredible.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!
- CuttingEdge
- 2010 crawler
- Posts: 534
- Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:13 pm
- Location: Maine
Re: Purchase questions
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!
- CuttingEdge
- 2010 crawler
- Posts: 534
- Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:13 pm
- Location: Maine
Re: Purchase questions
A note on the winch...
That bulldozer would rip that winch right in two if a person was to use it like a skidder winch, or like a real bulldozer winch.
What I found was, it was often hard for me to get my bulldozer within hook-up distance of trees. I could grab 2-3 trees pretty easily by driving close to them, but since a bulldozer moves slow, this was not very efficient when I could pull more trees, if I could just hook them up.
What the farm tractor type winch allowed me to do was, run the cable 150 feet away to grab a tree and winch it up to the back of the bulldozer on a cable that was hooked to the main frame of the bulldozer. Now I did not have to drive close to every tree, I could pull the trees to the back of the bulldozer.
Another frustrating situation was, going out with a twitch of wood to the yard, and then the trees coming unhooked. Instead of pulling 5 trees to the landing, I was now pulling 4, but I could not back up and grab the tree that was unhooked, even if it was only 20 feet back. With a winch, I could run the cable back, pull that tree up where I could reattach it to the bulldozer again. I that way, I never went to the yard with less then a full twitch.
All this added up to a much more efficient system of logging. Was it as good as a real bulldozer winch? No, but it was a lot cheaper!
That bulldozer would rip that winch right in two if a person was to use it like a skidder winch, or like a real bulldozer winch.
What I found was, it was often hard for me to get my bulldozer within hook-up distance of trees. I could grab 2-3 trees pretty easily by driving close to them, but since a bulldozer moves slow, this was not very efficient when I could pull more trees, if I could just hook them up.
What the farm tractor type winch allowed me to do was, run the cable 150 feet away to grab a tree and winch it up to the back of the bulldozer on a cable that was hooked to the main frame of the bulldozer. Now I did not have to drive close to every tree, I could pull the trees to the back of the bulldozer.
Another frustrating situation was, going out with a twitch of wood to the yard, and then the trees coming unhooked. Instead of pulling 5 trees to the landing, I was now pulling 4, but I could not back up and grab the tree that was unhooked, even if it was only 20 feet back. With a winch, I could run the cable back, pull that tree up where I could reattach it to the bulldozer again. I that way, I never went to the yard with less then a full twitch.
All this added up to a much more efficient system of logging. Was it as good as a real bulldozer winch? No, but it was a lot cheaper!
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!
Re: Purchase questions
Thanks a bunch guys. Are the stock pto's on these crawlers all 540 rpm? "Cuttingedge" any idea what the rpm is of the winch shaft setup of yours? I like your handy work there, if the rpm's would work on the setup it sure opens up more volume of crawlers to select from while shopping. I hate to find a cherry undercarriage with no pto and have to walk away, your option makes that situation workable. If I get in that situation, I will probably have some more questions.
Re: Purchase questions
They are 540, but at reduced RPM. If you don't have a tach that has the PTO speed line on it, it will be difficult to tell. The other issue is that later crawlers do not have a PTO lever, so the PTO runs all the time. Additionally if you run something such as a mower, the crawler will continue to move when you push in the clutch pedal, and if you hit the reverser, it will spin the PTO backwards. If using any sort of PTO equipment, I would absolutely use an overrunning clutch on the shaft.
Lavoy
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com
Re: Purchase questions
Lavoy, thanks for the reply. I can handle the pto speed if its within the range of idling up or down the machine; I have used a kit before for similar purpose that has a magnet you glue to the driveshaft and then mount a electronic pickup stationary that has a digital gauge with speed indication, they are priced reasonable.
Never knew what a overrunning shaft was, but looked it up. Good assurance I guess, they are also priced reasonable.
Knowing I could get "fabricated PTO" to any machine is a big plus.
Lavoy, where you located in North Dakota, I'm in Rapid City, SD? IF you get get a hot line on a crawler dozer and you don't want it, I'm a buyer.
Never knew what a overrunning shaft was, but looked it up. Good assurance I guess, they are also priced reasonable.
Knowing I could get "fabricated PTO" to any machine is a big plus.
Lavoy, where you located in North Dakota, I'm in Rapid City, SD? IF you get get a hot line on a crawler dozer and you don't want it, I'm a buyer.
- CuttingEdge
- 2010 crawler
- Posts: 534
- Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:13 pm
- Location: Maine
Re: Purchase questions
If I got another John Deere bulldozer, the first thing I would do is put a PTO shaft in it.
I fully admit the set-up on mine was not perfect because I could not throw it in and out of pto operation with a flip of a lever, but it could suddenly do so much more. The ability to go anywhere was just plain nice, like putting fertilizer on pastures that were too rocky and rough for my Kubota tractor to go, or spreading fertilizer a few weeks early when it was so muddy on the fields, which is exactly when you want to put fertilizer down.
But it was little stuff too, like having 40 HP to power my PTO generator when the power goes out. I could only get 14 KW out of it with my little Kubota, but with my bulldozer I could get all 83 amps/20 KW out of it.
There were some work arounds to it, but it was well worth having. I never put my bushog behind it, but I that would have been insane. The steep hillsides, rough places, and nail-ridden areas I could then mow...
(This is a picture of my 83amp/20 KW generator in its tiny generator house, hard-wired to my home's electrical system).
I fully admit the set-up on mine was not perfect because I could not throw it in and out of pto operation with a flip of a lever, but it could suddenly do so much more. The ability to go anywhere was just plain nice, like putting fertilizer on pastures that were too rocky and rough for my Kubota tractor to go, or spreading fertilizer a few weeks early when it was so muddy on the fields, which is exactly when you want to put fertilizer down.
But it was little stuff too, like having 40 HP to power my PTO generator when the power goes out. I could only get 14 KW out of it with my little Kubota, but with my bulldozer I could get all 83 amps/20 KW out of it.
There were some work arounds to it, but it was well worth having. I never put my bushog behind it, but I that would have been insane. The steep hillsides, rough places, and nail-ridden areas I could then mow...
(This is a picture of my 83amp/20 KW generator in its tiny generator house, hard-wired to my home's electrical system).
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!
- CuttingEdge
- 2010 crawler
- Posts: 534
- Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:13 pm
- Location: Maine
Re: Purchase questions
I would not think twice about putting a PTO on a bulldozer, but I would think long and hard before getting a wood chipper though.
I have one, but what I have found is, their stated "size" is about half of what they claim. For instance, a wood chipper might claim that it is 8 inches, but really about all it can take is a 4 inch piece of wood. The trouble comes in on the "knuckles" of wood, or where branches form. They have a hard time chipping through that. So you really need twice the size you think you need.
The other problem, is feeding the chipper. They really need to have some sort of feed system. That of course means having a bigger, more expensive chipper.
Even then, standing there feeding whatever chipper you get, ends up being a person burning valuable time babysitting a chipper with a very small pile of chips to show for it at the end of the day.
In my experience, it is best to either rent a BAC (Big Ass Chipper), or make piles and just burn them. Typically I do the latter. I have had some brush piles that after I put a match too, the space station called, and asked just what I was burning. Its pretty amazing, let some snow fall, then take a brush pile the size of a house, and by the next morning its down to ash that you could fit in a wheel barrow.
Your experience and ideas might differ, but I have found burning brush piles is a lot faster and cheaper then making wood chips.
I have one, but what I have found is, their stated "size" is about half of what they claim. For instance, a wood chipper might claim that it is 8 inches, but really about all it can take is a 4 inch piece of wood. The trouble comes in on the "knuckles" of wood, or where branches form. They have a hard time chipping through that. So you really need twice the size you think you need.
The other problem, is feeding the chipper. They really need to have some sort of feed system. That of course means having a bigger, more expensive chipper.
Even then, standing there feeding whatever chipper you get, ends up being a person burning valuable time babysitting a chipper with a very small pile of chips to show for it at the end of the day.
In my experience, it is best to either rent a BAC (Big Ass Chipper), or make piles and just burn them. Typically I do the latter. I have had some brush piles that after I put a match too, the space station called, and asked just what I was burning. Its pretty amazing, let some snow fall, then take a brush pile the size of a house, and by the next morning its down to ash that you could fit in a wheel barrow.
Your experience and ideas might differ, but I have found burning brush piles is a lot faster and cheaper then making wood chips.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!
- Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2904
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Re: Purchase questions
Hi,
I will have to go look at my 350C tach, but IIRC the 540 power shaft speed is 1500 RPM. Not 2400 like on the wheel tractors. So the crawlers have lower PTO power than wheel tractors.
The other thing about adding a shaft to a crawler that doesn't have one from the factory is no reverse in the transmission. Deere didn't give the trans an R if it was built with a reverser. So, after adding a shaft you can't back up with it running something. Unless you tear into the trans and add an R, of course.
Stan
I will have to go look at my 350C tach, but IIRC the 540 power shaft speed is 1500 RPM. Not 2400 like on the wheel tractors. So the crawlers have lower PTO power than wheel tractors.
The other thing about adding a shaft to a crawler that doesn't have one from the factory is no reverse in the transmission. Deere didn't give the trans an R if it was built with a reverser. So, after adding a shaft you can't back up with it running something. Unless you tear into the trans and add an R, of course.
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Re: Purchase questions
Just outside of Fargo.
Lavoy
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com
- Jason37756
- 440 crawler
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:23 am
- Location: Tennessee
Re: Purchase questions
My 350 has a lever to engage the winch drive. The spool valve also has a neutral or float setting so I don't have to power down the dozer.
Jason
Jason
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