'73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

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cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:43 am

I wish I had a wiring system that was even there to repair... the engine on this machine caught fire on the previous owner and ALL wiring between the dash and grill are non existent. I did find a yard that has a dash and most, if not all, of the wiring so there's hope :D

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:15 pm

What other machines came with a 4039DF turbo diesel engine?? I'm having a hell of a time trying to locate parts that are engine specific such as a flywheel and of course I can't order the starter until I have the flywheel in hand and know it will work, etc. etc.

I am actually having great luck (so far) with a ton of the other parts on my list. I have found a few salvage yards across the country that have some 450B's in their yard so things like transmission cooler lines, hyd lines, hyd pump, etc, should be a green light.

Regarding the clutch compartment, the corrosion was pretty bad and is taking longer than expected but that's ok because I didn't realize that every spring in there was shot, Luckily I found all the springs for both compartments and they are on the way...

Anyone on here know of a salvage yard that has a 450B in their yard near southeast Indiana???
Last edited by cordlesscarpenter on Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jim B
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by Jim B » Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:25 pm

I believe the 4039, that went into the ag tractor I know of, used the rear plate and flywheel from the 4219 on the 4039 block so it used the original starter. Likewise I think some of the front covers of the 4219 had to be used as that engine came from a compressor or sprayer, so driveline had no clutch and mounting was different. You may need to have the seal area of the plate on the back of the block reworked to accept the new rear main seal.

B Town
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by B Town » Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:28 pm

Well, I know of one in SW Illinois. Schaefer Enterprises of Wolf Lake. AKA - SEWL. Best I can do.

cordlesscarpenter
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Location: Southeast Indiana

Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:53 am

Jim B wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:25 pm
I believe the 4039, that went into the ag tractor I know of, used the rear plate and flywheel from the 4219 on the 4039 block so it used the original starter. Likewise I think some of the front covers of the 4219 had to be used as that engine came from a compressor or sprayer, so driveline had no clutch and mounting was different. You may need to have the seal area of the plate on the back of the block reworked to accept the new rear main seal.
Lucky for me, this particular 4039 was pulled out of a JD 450C that had a bunch of other issues leading to its demise. They had just brought it into the yard, when I purchased it. They pulled the engine, bench tested it on a pallet and even send me the video. It came with the rear plate already installed and it matches the plate that's on the old engine that was in the fire.

Thanks on the lead in SW Illinois... it's better than nothing and I may contact them and make a trip up there once I get this old gal put back together and find all those little things I still need to finish up. They're only a 5 hour drive from me, would make for a nice Wednesday drive 8)

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:46 am

Got ALL parts cleaned up and ready to go for the right clutch housing, just waiting on the new springs. Left side should go considerably faster now that I know what all is involved. Then it will be on to removing the old undercarriage which I will likely be doing until the springs arrive. Once that is done I Plan to do all the little things that need to be done before prep and paint such as pulling the cover off and inspecting the transmission and finish removing all the earth caked everywhere lol. will be a ton of work over the next few weeks for sure.

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:40 pm

Update:

Right side clutch compartment is completely done and the left has all its guts torn out... Tomorrow is wire wheeling and assembly. For those doing this in the future, the trick is to do them like you would the brakes on your car/truck... one side at a time so you have one side to reference if head scratching begins. The one tool you need to have if you don't have one already is a slide hammer. The slide hammer will need to have the adapters for both the pinion shaft, which I believe is 3/8-16 threads, as well as an adapter for the inner shaft, which I believe is 5/16-18 threads.

The big "retainers" that could have you breaking something if you're not paying attention are:

1. Springs, if you plan to re-use them, remember to remove the one attaching your upper brake band to the big top cover or you'll snap in when you snatch the top cover as well as the one attaching your lower brake band to the floor of the compartment. Once you've released the two springs from the throwout bearing shaft, they will simply fall off as you beat the shaft out the top.

2. The 2 woodruff keys on the shaft that holds the main clutch engagement and brake mechanisms. One of the woodruff keys is outside the housing itself and it keeps your linkage that attaches to your steering lever just behind your power steering cylinder from rotating on the shaft and the other keeps your clutch operation mechanism from rotating on the shaft. The easiest way to remove a woodruff key once you've exposed it is to use a small flat tipped punch and tap on one end so that the other end pops up so you can grab it with pliers.

3. On the two mechanisms that are held in place with woodruff keys, there are also positioning bolts... they not only squeeze that mechanism tight, they also (as their main function) align it in just the right place along that shaft (it slides into a specific groove on the shaft), you will need to completely remove that bolt before you can move that fitting.

4. The bolt that locks the pinion shaft to the clutch drum (that little turd that is accessible when you remove the pipe plug above the pinion shaft quill above your final drive). Forget to remove this and you might as well put "hammer-time" on repeat cuz you'll be there for a long.... long time.

5. When you start slide hammering out the pinion shaft, remember that your inner bearing will not come out with the pinion shaft (the bull gear which the pinion gear is engaged with, will not allow it, if it is stuck on the shaft it will feel like you forgot something (see #4 above lol), just be careful and keep slide hammering and remove the inner bearing once you have the pinion in hand.

6. The lock nutted bolt holding the forked mechanism that engages with your throw-out bearing carrier in place on the throwout bearing vertical shaft, remove that before you start beating the shaft upwards. Don't hit yourself in the face with the hammer as you do this hehe.

** It is also a wise idea to check your pinion shaft's end play BEFORE you install the clutch. Once you get the pinion shaft in place and the pinion shaft quill is on and torqued to 85 ft lbs, check to see that the end play is 0.000-0.030 (the "end play" would be how much shaft is allowed to move back and forth along the axis of the pinion shaft) then remove shims from the shim pack to get your desired end play. I see this as a tale tell of the health of your bearings on that shaft. If you have to remove shims because your play is more than 0.030, it tells me the bearings are shot or are at least worn enough to warrant replacing them or you'll have to break the track again to do that job sooner rather than later.

If I had to guess, a fully loaded clutch drum weighs around 150 lbs so mechanical rigging from above would be ideal, I just used a big engine hoist but I've seen others use scaffolding, gantry cranes or even tractors... it is heavy but manageable to carry from one place to another for rebuilding it.

Each person and each job has it's own unique challenges but these were some noteworthy points. Hope this helps some people down the road... If you do this on your machine and get stuck, reach out to me via message and If I'm still around I'd gladly help you out over the phone or video chat.

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:25 pm

So I did all the work to the right steering clutch and got it all back together, then started in on the left. Today I assembled everything in the drum and mounted the pressure plate, then while adjusting them to the gauge I realized the lock nuts felt like they could be stripping out, you know that mushy feeling when you're like... eeeehhhh, any further and it's stripped. Well I had that same feeling with the first three on the right side but moved onward anyways, installed it and everything, fast forward to today and while adjusting them, one nut blew out on me... :shock: :cry:

Here's the thing, I was applying VERY little no NO torque to them, they must have been assembled with ungraded hardware, it's the only logical explanation. Needless to say, I now have to pull sides apart and replace all 6 nuts and bolts with grade 8 hardware. Huge pain in the butt but it'll be worth the time just to have some peace of mind. I Say this all to help those doing this in the future... be aware of substandard hardware.

Onward Ho!

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:59 pm

Update:

Made it through both clutches and everything is in perfect working order as far as they are concerned... As I think I mentioned previously, I had to pull them back out so I could swap in full width grade 8 nuts on the adjusting screws for the pressure plate fingers (where the throwout bearing makes contact with the pressure plate. While I was doing that I realized both shafts for the pedal brakes were locked up so I had to get those free'd up and with a whole lot of liquid wrench, 30 minutes and a few choice words, they free'd up and swing like butter. Got them all adjusted and they're ready to button up except... the power steering yokes threw me down another rabbit hole of ugh's.

I was adjusting the yokes on both sides of the power steering cylinders that sit right behind each steering stick and a hyd line caught my eye... so I followed it to the firewall where it, along with every other hose, hard line, cable and wire has been either burned to a crisp or at a minimum I've lost trust in its integrity due to the fire. Anyways, it got me thinking where that line will tie into the hyd system and low and behold, apparently my year of 450B had its very own hydraulic pump (separate from the main hyd pump) which is also driven by the engine but is stuffed right up against the gear train under the fan mount... all fine and dandy but not only do I not have the pump, even if I had the pump, there is no where to mount it on the 4039DF I have to stab in there. I believe there was a different configuration for earlier 450Bs that didn't use that separate pump so I'll be looking into that route. Anyone ever wun into a similar problem that may have some advice on this?

Once the steering clutch/brake compartments are buttoned up it will be go time for ripping out the rest of the old undercarriage and prepping everything for paint... then all the assembly begins!

cordlesscarpenter
440 crawler
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Location: Southeast Indiana

Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:54 am

Ok, so those upper brake band springs were trickier than I thought they'd be but I finally got them on and both clutch/brake compartments are all buttoned up... whew, thank goodness that's done.

More super good news, the track pads were finally delivered yesterday and to my delight, they already had the clean-outs cut into the center! I chose to go with the loader pads vs the dozer pads so since there are 3 grousers they have 2 ovals instead of one big hole but I'll take it! WooHoo!!! Man, that was an awesome surprise... saved me a bunch of time and money there.

Before I get started on the undercarriage rip out, I figure I better crack open the trans and rear end and give them a good thorough inspection. Lots of salvage parts are on the way too, new dash, hydraulic and trans piping, throttle linkage, radiator and pump support with drive and disconnect assembly, engine fan, shroud, etc...

fun fun

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:41 am

Inspection complete on the rear half of the trans (I call it the rear end but I think it is technically refered to as the rear half of the transmission since it's not a differential) and I was treated to pristine rear end... it looked practically brand new in there! Very happy about that, perhaps it had been replaced sometime relatively recent. Next is to pull the front cover and see what's what in there. Hopefully it looks as good as the rear but I won't really, truly know the health of the front half until I actually get her moving since everything is housed inside the clutch packs and you just never know if oil will move freely through all the ports and passages properly unless you completely break it down and rebuild it (which I'm not planning and hope I won't have to do as it would set the project back considerably).

Got the old dash out too, along with some superfluous wiring and piping, oh and sprayed everything with liquid wrench in preps to remove what's left of the old undercarriage.

progress is good :D

cordlesscarpenter
440 crawler
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Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:36 pm
Location: Southeast Indiana

Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:58 pm

Was looking back on another thread where I asked about a 4219 - 4039 swap and remembered seeing where Jim B mentioned that there might be a problem with that little power steering pump but back then I didn't really understand the system like I do now. Funny thing is... now that I already have an engine, I found a couple good 4219s and 4239s... I guess that's how it goes.

Got me wondering now, if the the front plate from a 4219 or 4239 will fit a 4039 and what else I'd have to swap to the 4039... I imagine the gear train is not set up for a power steering hyd pump that isn't a factory but what else am I not thinking about??? hmmm.

Well, back to the undercarriage ripout... good times. fall can't come fast enough!

Is anyone even reading these posts?

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri Aug 27, 2021 4:50 am

Hi,

Well, I am reading them. I rarely have anything to add when it comes to 450s, though. I've not had or been around one. It is quite the adventure you are having.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

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Jim B
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by Jim B » Fri Aug 27, 2021 4:59 am

I read them. I check in about every day and see what's new on all the Boards. I don't log in and post unless I think I can add something.

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77 Ford
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by 77 Ford » Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:06 am

Jim B wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 4:59 am
I read them. I check in about every day and see what's new on all the Boards. I don't log in and post unless I think I can add something.
This x 2
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Serial #208336T

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