'73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

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cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Sat May 14, 2022 11:58 am

Removed the adjustable stop nut on the HLR arm and there was a washer between this nut and the conical spacer. The book doesn't show a washer on top, only a washer below the "arm" (which IS also present on mine).

The HLR shaft's arm will not pivot high enough to get over the threaded linkage (I imagine this is the stopping point on the other end of the shaft inside the trans). The arm wouldn't need to travel/pivot higher than this linkage anyways since that is as far as the nut can be adjusted out. The HLR shaft rotates quite freely and the spring has no problem pushing the arm up after being fully depressed, it is quite snappy, feels to be in excellent condition and performing it's job well.

OK, I lied, I wasn't completely done on the backhoe, I had to plastidip the 8 brackets that hold the 4 stabilizer hoses in place which I did yesterday and today I tapped out the holes and mounted the brackets. While plastidipping, I went ahead and dipped the handles and put those on this morning as well. Then got the levers all adjusted and tightened down so they are comfortable, have free range of motion on all levers and are even all the way across.

I really wish I could figure out this gear grinding issue, it's is bugging the heck out of me... all the time and money spent on this project already and one simple issue is putting a halt to progress and my life quite frankly. ugh

B Town
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by B Town » Sat May 14, 2022 12:44 pm

Good news on the HLR. I have found when it gets frustrating and are running into issues, sometimes it is best to step back and look at the most basic aspects of the issue.

Couple questions, can you confirm the 1,2,3,4 did not grind before your work. Again, just trying to isolate when the issue may have occurred. If it worked fine before, then you look at the new changes. But if it didn’t work proper or you can’t confirm proper function; then all aspects become suspect.

This thread is lengthy and I didn’t go back and read all the clutch components. Did you confirm the clutch disk was the proper diameter for you flywheel. There are a couple sizes and if they are not matched properly the clutch cannot release. Also, did you measure the height of the clutch fingers off of the flywheel to confirm the clutch fingers were proper preset by the manufacturer.

The 1,2,3,4 trans is mechanical. So in my mind something is not releasing alway smooth shifting with out grinding.

Best regards, Bruce

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Sat May 14, 2022 8:07 pm

I cannot confirm any operational status of the machine before I got it. I literally got the "fire sale"... the previous owner parked it in a seasonal creek to go for a bite to eat and came home to find his dozer engine on fire. He claimed everything was working fine when he parked it, he mentioned that he sprayed penetrating oil on his left steering clutch when it froze up once, that's when I knew he didn't know much about the machine and is also why I rebuilt both steering clutches without hesitation. Needless to say, I never had a chance to operate the machine prior to the restoration so I have no idea of any previous issues if any (outside of whatever caused the fire, but he had no clue). During the tear-down, I assumed everything was bad or needed to be inspected at a minimum (hence the new undercarriage, new steering clutches, new engine clutch, etc.). I inspected the trans and finals but did not rebuild them because they looked pristine, almost as if the were recently rebuilt. I do have the kits to rebuild the finals when that day comes but for now I'm leaving them alone.

I did verify that I got the correct pressure plate and clutch disk (11") per the book, it also exactly matched the one that I replaced.

********
I started writing the above then went back out to fiddle some more, here's what happened... Last night I removed the pressure gauge setup from the test port under the drum plug and forgot to put the 1/8" plug back in the hole, just put the big drum plug back because there was a chance of storms last night. This morning I removed the stop nut, washer and conical spacer under the left side rubber plug, cleaned them up and gave the conical spacer a light coating of grease. I then exercised the pivoting arm through its full range of motion without the nut and conical spacer, even let it snap back quite a few times just to work it, make sure it was not binding and ensure the spring was indeed good and pushing the arm upwards strongly. I then VERY carefully re-installed the conical spacer, washer and stop nut (to where I remember it being when I took it off, so obviously not set with the book procedure), took the foot brake off (since I'm on jacks and no tracks at this point, it shouldn't matter), put it in 2nd gear, HLR in N obviously, to start, and fired up the old girl.

And just like that, everything works exactly as it should!!! The clutch did its job and ALL gears 1,2,3,4 engage smoothly like they should, no grinding!! ALL H-L-R ranges operate smoothly (I did have to adjust the linkage clevis one turn) but everything works now!

Then, since my engine oil pressure gauge on the dash (electronic sending unit type, not mechanical) is obviously wired incorrectly (it pegs out when I turn the key to the on position for start and it stays there) I wanted to verify my oil pressure for peace of mind. I took the sending unit out and plugged in my new gauge set up, oil pressure is excellent! Oil pressure reads 50 psi @ 900 rpm and 65psi @ 2,000 rpm. The book says 45-65 psi at 2,500... This pointed out something else I need to work out. Even though the throttle linkage and lever on the injection pump are still advancing when I move the throttle lever up, the engine maxes out at 2,000 rpm??? I assume something needs to be adjusted??? If you know what, please pipe in.

I put the plug back in the test port and reverified free travel at 3.750 and everything was still working properly so I went ahead and rolled the track chain on!

That's as far as I got before I lost daylight but holy crap what a day of ups and down. I had terrible thoughts of removing the engine, removing the trans top cover, etc... not cool at all at this stage of the game. Thankfully none of that was necessary (at least not as of now).

Thanks Bruce, for your advice! it may or may not have helped get everything working but it got me going through all the different steps you took and somewhere along the line it worked itself out.

I still need to join the chain and bolt on the pads, then re-adjust the steering and brakes a little then give her a test drive and adjust tracking and all that, so still lots to do but getting past this was a huge hurdle!

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Sun May 15, 2022 10:55 pm

Sometimes I make some pretty silly mistakes... This morning I spent the first hour of my day taking my track chains off and turning them around, yup, put them on backwards. At least I realized it before I got the pads on I suppose. For those who do this in the future, do yourself a favor and make sure to look at the photo of a stock machine (such as the ones in the manuals).

Spent the rest of the day installing track pads which are all on now and man it looks good! She looks like a crawler again!

Tomorrow is figuring out the oil pressure gauge wiring, torquing all 296 bolts, running through the brakes/steering clutch adjustment one last time and hopefully by the end of the day tomorrow, she will be moving under her own power for the first time since I've had her, exciting times!

If all goes well I may even get started putting the loader on.

I can finally see the light at the end of this 2 year long tunnel!

Good news is that I've made it to this point BUT I still have not tested hydraulics. Since the machine was a complete wild card from the start, I didn't want to risk testing until I had all 4 cylinders hooked up which I can't do without having the loader on, so there's that, lingering over my head.

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Al Swearengen
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by Al Swearengen » Mon May 16, 2022 7:13 am

cordlesscarpenter wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 10:55 pm
torquing all 296 bolts
You'll feel that! When I swapped out my rails, sprockets, and new pads, I bought a nice electric impact. Won't stretch 'em, but gets within a half a turn! :lol:
'99 450G 6-Way

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Mon May 16, 2022 7:44 am

I have the larger Dewalt 1/2" impact driver and I don't know how I lived without one for so long lol. I basically snugged everything up last night on setting "2" which should have gotten it pretty close. even with an impact gun, that's a LOT of hardware and I feel it today ha. They are 9/16" UNF grade 8 bolts, I could probably give them a rap on "3" and they'd be good to go but I'll torque them all to spec twice and mark each pad, that's just how I'm programmed 🤓

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Mon May 16, 2022 11:00 am

FYI, for those who get ITR tracks (SALT chain with 9/16-18 nuts and bolts), they are not grade 8 (which would require 175 ft lbs of torque), they are grade 9 (requiring min 190 ft lbs - max 210 ft lbs). So make sure you have a torque wrench that can get you there. And, if anyone is curious, they are manufactured in Korea.

Gonna get back at it, at least they are pre-torqued now lol.

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Mon May 16, 2022 2:37 pm

Does anyone have an idea why my RPM hits a brick wall at 2,000? The throttle lever is still moving as if to give more fuel but the engine doesn't get any faster. It's almost like it has a governor or some sort of limiter, I'm hoping it's just a quick adjustment of the injection pump.

I tried switching the wiring for my engine oil pressure gauge but had no success so I put it back the way it was. I did verified that the way I wired it the first time(the way I have it now) is indeed correct as per the tech manual.

Tracks are complete, moving on to steering/brakes adjustment

Jim B
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by Jim B » Mon May 16, 2022 2:55 pm

I'm taking the lazy way out here, and not reading all of your posts, to find the answer to this question. Didn't you send the pump out and have it done? If so, you should talk to the shop that did it before you try anything on your own or with advice from anyone. The pump has a governor, which should have been set on the bench during testing and calibration. Are you sure your tach is accurate?

B Town
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by B Town » Mon May 16, 2022 7:05 pm

Do you have a Roosa Master injection pump? There should be two set stews on the injection lever. One for slow idle one for fast idle.

https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sid ... gId/148326

Best regards.

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Mon May 16, 2022 9:30 pm

Jim B wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 2:55 pm
I'm taking the lazy way out here, and not reading all of your posts, to find the answer to this question. Didn't you send the pump out and have it done? If so, you should talk to the shop that did it before you try anything on your own or with advice from anyone. The pump has a governor, which should have been set on the bench during testing and calibration. Are you sure your tach is accurate?
Yes, I delivered the engine to my mechanic who has not only been doing engine rebuilds for over 30 years, he also owns a little fleet of 450s and is very familiar with the platform. He took the injection pump off and sent it to the shop he uses all the time for inj pumps to have them inspect it, they ended up re-building it completely.

I will talk with my mechanic and get the pump shop's info and give them a buzz.

Thanks

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Mon May 16, 2022 10:01 pm

B Town wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 7:05 pm
Do you have a Roosa Master injection pump? There should be two set stews on the injection lever. One for slow idle one for fast idle.

https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sid ... gId/148326

Best regards.
Yes, it is a Roosa Master (Model No: JDB432AL2475, just past that it reads 2500 (RPM??) and below that it says 1553044 (serial #???). I'll be familiarizing myself with the entire pump and making sure there's nothing blatantly obvious that jumps out at me to adjust (thanks for the parts breakdown quick link) before I talk with the shop that did the re-build, that way I can speak "injector pump" and make any adjustments they recommend.

The engine (including the pump seem to work perfectly (outside of the limited RPM so I'll likely be poking around with it in my head while I join the tractor to the loader (tomorrow hopefully) and then I can focus in on the pump.

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Mon May 16, 2022 10:28 pm

Got all track shoe bolts torqued down to 200 ft lbs, carriers filled with oil and got the steering clutch/brake adjustment completed today.

I was able to get free play set pretty good, although I'm not 100% positive I got the big brake bolt (the one through the side cover) to the same "tightness" or at the correct level of "tightness". This step is very subjective, I mean my definition of tight is different than Sally's definition of tight. Either way, both brake bands seem to be engaging at the same time so that's the important part. Since I'm still in the air on jacks, I can't tell if what is stopping the tracks is brakes or steering clutches but will get it on a hill soon enough and figure that out real quick. Foot pedal brakes have the right amount of play in them as well.

However (keep in mind I am currently still in the air on jacks but have both complete tracks on at this point), when I start the engine and put it in 1st gear low, everything rolls like it should but then when I pull back on the steering sticks, there is a very unfamiliar vibration, like a shutter in the sticks. It doesn't feel normal to me from my experience with 450 series dozers but I'm not sure at this point what the issue could be. I'm thinking it could have something to do with the power steering or possibly new brakes and new clutches going through a break-in phase??? If you've experienced this, know what the issue is, or even have some ideas on what might be happening I'd love to hear what you have to say.

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Tue May 17, 2022 3:44 pm

Well gents, I took her off the jack stands and drove her for the first time, I was giddy as a school boy for the whole 50 ft I moved her. She shifts into reverse a little harder than my old 450 but I imagine that will smooth out when I run through the HLR adjustment procedure again.

She needs some small tweaks to the steering clutch/brake but is working well enough for the initial adjustment.

The injection pump was a simple fix, just 5 or 6 turns of the adjustment screw (closest to the operator) on the right side of the lever that hooks to the linkage. I couldn't find it in the book but everything I could see in the manual and even the pump itself says 2,500 so I just set it to max out at 2,500. Does anyone know if it is safe to go to 2,500 on a 4.219? The RPM range I have now feels like a good working range but I won't know anything until I start moving dirt front and rear. What RPM do you guys typically run when working it with a load?

Just got the loader all cleaned up from sitting in the side yard for over a year, she's all pre-greased and ready to pin on the old girl so I'd better get back at it.

B Town
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by B Town » Tue May 17, 2022 6:08 pm

The link to the parts diagram shows two idle screws. If I am following you correctly the screw in the back position nearest the operator is for fast idle.

Mine is set at 2,500 fast idle. Rarely need that much snort. On my 60 acre place, I can do the majority of work in the 1,500 - 1,800 RPM.

Best regards, Bruce

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