'73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

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preventec47
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by preventec47 » Tue May 17, 2022 6:36 pm

cordlesscarpenter- Can you give us an idea as to where you and your engine mechanic are located ?
I ran a 450B with a 9300 backhoe for five years in a custom home building business from 2000 to 2005
Then I parked it under a shed roof. The tracks were completely worn out and the used engine that I bought to put in it proved to leak oil into the coolant and a tear down revealed too much corosion in the block to rebuild. I am retired now and have fond memories of running that machine and I am now having to make the decision to either rebuild/restore the machine or sell it outright to someone
who might be able to put it back into operation or could use a lot of the good parts.
If I could find a trustworthy mechanic to do the work for me, what do you think the cost of a
new undercarriage, overhauled steering clutches, tuneup of the hydralics, and a replacement rebuilt or new reliable engine might be ? About five years ago I hooked up some battery cables to the engine from my truck and I just wanted to see if the engine was frozen and when I pushed
the start button, it cranked and ran for 15 or 20 seconds until I shut it off as I knew it had no coolant in the motor. Too bad the motor cannot be rebuilt due to internal corrosion.
I am NW of Atlanta, GA about 25 miles. My 450-B is also a dry clutch 1973 model and my 9300 is
in very good condition as I think it was used very little in its lifetime compared to the equipments main use as a track loader. email 2scott@bellsouth.net I guess to be accurate my machine might be called a "parts machine"

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Tue May 17, 2022 9:34 pm

Funny thing you mention that again (low idle screw and high idle screw), my low idle screw is missing. I see the holes for it, just like high idle but there is no adjustment screw on it. It doesn't effect operation right now but I could see how it would be useful to make the throttle lever a the operator make a little more sense, since right now all the way down is where I set low idle and when I go to 2,500 rpm I'm only like half way up the slot for the lever... I suppose one could adjust the lever action to be in the middle of the slot for the operator if I added the low idle screw.

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by B Town » Wed May 18, 2022 10:31 am

Pump shop may have some screws laying around. I think it would be proper to have the low and high set at the pump shaft.

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Wed May 18, 2022 3:16 pm

As I'm putting the loader together, I noticed I missed ordering the wavy washers that go on the large lever (boomerang), part number T32676. When I dis-assembled the loader, I only remember seeing the 4 smaller ones that go on the smaller lever near the bucket (which I ordered and have installed.

Do any of you guys that run 450's have this wavy washer on your boom? Or better yet, run without these washers and have you noticed any problems?

Reason I ask is because I only found one place that has them and it would be a total of $85.00 for 2 washers. That's a lot of money for 2 washers in my book but I don't want to run without them to find out it jamesses with loader alignment and wears my pins and bushings down fast or worse yet, makes the loader catch on the tracks if I'm side hilling with the loader still in between the tracks.

Lavoy (or anyone for that matter), you don't have 2 of these kicking around the shop do you?

~ Darrell

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Thu May 19, 2022 5:50 am

Lesson learned...

When you go to re-join the loader to the tractor, put the loader together BEFORE you pin it to the machine lol

I don't know why I didn't think about doing it that way in the first place but it sure would have been easier. I took it off the machine then tore it down from there... why I didn't do it in reverse putting it back on is beyond me, getting in a bit of a rush I suppose.

Got most of it together but one of the problems I ran into was putting the large levers on. Because the boom cylinders were in the down position, that's where the boom is and the side of the large levers with the pins attached needs to be put on from the inside which I cannot do with the loader down so once raised, I'll have to prop it up with my maintenance stanchions and swap them. Basically I put the left side on the right and vise verse so that I could put the levers on from the outside. I can do nothing but chuckle at myself when I make moronic mistakes like this. I suppose one could leave it like this but that puts all the grease fittings only accessible from the inside which you can only get to easily by raising the loader.

Heading out now to hook up the last of the hydraulic lines now, then it's fill up with HY-GARD, engage the hyd pump at the drive/disconnect and test. 🤞🤞🤞

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Thu May 19, 2022 6:52 am

preventec47 wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 6:36 pm
cordlesscarpenter- Can you give us an idea as to where you and your engine mechanic are located ?
I ran a 450B with a 9300 backhoe for five years in a custom home building business from 2000 to 2005
Then I parked it under a shed roof. The tracks were completely worn out and the used engine that I bought to put in it proved to leak oil into the coolant and a tear down revealed too much corosion in the block to rebuild. I am retired now and have fond memories of running that machine and I am now having to make the decision to either rebuild/restore the machine or sell it outright to someone
who might be able to put it back into operation or could use a lot of the good parts.
If I could find a trustworthy mechanic to do the work for me, what do you think the cost of a
new undercarriage, overhauled steering clutches, tuneup of the hydralics, and a replacement rebuilt or new reliable engine might be ? About five years ago I hooked up some battery cables to the engine from my truck and I just wanted to see if the engine was frozen and when I pushed
the start button, it cranked and ran for 15 or 20 seconds until I shut it off as I knew it had no coolant in the motor. Too bad the motor cannot be rebuilt due to internal corrosion.
I am NW of Atlanta, GA about 25 miles. My 450-B is also a dry clutch 1973 model and my 9300 is
in very good condition as I think it was used very little in its lifetime compared to the equipments main use as a track loader. email 2scott@bellsouth.net I guess to be accurate my machine might be called a "parts machine"
Sending you an email

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Fri May 20, 2022 4:51 am

Got the loader all buttoned up, tank filled and ready for testing in the morning. It started thunderstorming just as I was finishing up filling the tank, plus it was getting dark fast so felt it best to wait.

Broke down and ordered the wavy washers 😒.

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Fri May 20, 2022 8:52 pm

Hydraulic system results after a half day of testing...

Tried to bump the engine over to prime the pump but my machine is very hard to just bump over because it wants to start immediately.

The GOOD:
- Once I got fluid flowing it took a bit for the system to fill up and I still think there is air in the system but all 4 cylinders are moving in and out and not leaking, so I dodged a bullet on the cylinder rebuilds.

- ONLY 1 small leak!

The BAD:
- There is a strange smell, like burning rubber and plastic. It isn't super strong and I'm currently under cover (thunderstorms) where it traps some of the exhaust, so I might be smelling that, not sure yet, hopefully it isn't something catastrophic getting ready to happen (that's right where my brain goes when I hear or smell things out of the ordinary). The engine drive belt is cool to the touch and not overly tight.

- I do have the one small leak but it's at that connection on the pressure side right at the right side floor board and kick panel where it connects to the line going into the tank. Easy to get to (relatively) and I can get a wrench on it BUT I have no swing with the wrench, like none, because the suction lines are right beside it on one side and the wall or a bracket is on the other. I may be able to get a crows foot in there or maybe move some of the obstruction a bit but not sure, will look try harder in the AM when I can see what I'm doing and get it figured out.

The UNKNOWN:
- The boom has a fast pulsing action for the first half of the travel up travel and then it smooths out nicely as soon as it gets above hood height. It has a very slow pulsing action on the downward travel, it'll move like 6-8", pause for a split second and go another 6-8". I assume this is happening because the cylinders are not full of oil yet, I need to move it out from underneath the cover so I can raise to full up and full down to get the cylinders full of oil and all the air out.

- The oil at the sight glass is bubbly, I kind of expect that since the system was completely dry and is still working out all the air.

- The engine still starts right away but now that it is engaging the hyd pump, it takes a few seconds for it to get up to normal speed. I don't remember having this problem with my straight 450. ALSO, when I shut the engine down, it comes to a stop very quickly compared to shutting down when the pump is disconnected.

Do these issues sound normal for starting up a system after a complete rebuild or should I be concerned? Have any of you experienced these issues? My biggest concern/unknown is the effect it is having on the engine. The pump is also brand new, perhaps it will settle out once the system has had a chance to run a bit and break in, so to speak, I'm not sure. I also had to stop frequently and put more HY-GARD in the tank becasue it obviously only holds so much and once I start up, it all got sucked into the lines and cylinders. I have about 13-14 gallons in it right now.

Anything sound off to any of you? Should I be worried about the engine effects or the smell??

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LeonardL
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by LeonardL » Sat May 21, 2022 10:19 am

Well your smell could be as simple as things getting warm after new paint and a new rebuild. But I would check wiring and anything that could have heat build up in it. If all seems normal then I would proceed.

You really need to get all the air out of the hydraulics to get a good summation of the hydraulic system. It sounds to me like you may have a bit of a load on the hydraulics if it is harder to start and then shuts down rapidly. They will do this under normal circumstances but it shouldn't be to an extreme one way or another. Your hydraulics do put an immediate load on the engine. I wouldn't worry about the engine as much as I would about your hydraulic pump.

Because of this immediate load is why Deere put the hydraulic disconnect on them to help with cold starting situations. Something they later quit doing because most folks never used them for that purpose. In fact that's why you find just about all of them frozen in place.

Deere Ag tractors along with their TLB cousins in the same vintage as your crawler have a valve on the pump to disengage them while starting. Of course they had a completely different pump on them as well. However I often wondered why they didn't do this on everything.

That being said let's get back to your smell??? Have you checked for heat at your hydraulic pump and control valve or any of the system for that matter? Hydraulics under a load will create a ton of heat and it can get hot enough to melt plastic or rubber.

I would check the machine both with the hoe connected and disconnected from the system. Just to see what both systems are doing to each other. Again your air could be causing a lot of your issue and a hydraulic load could be causing your smell. Proceed with caution but more about your hydraulic system than your motor. Those old motors are about bullet proof. Your hydraulics are not so much.
40 plus years working on JD 350s, 400Gs, 450s and other equipment both Ag and Construction.

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Sat May 21, 2022 12:21 pm

I pulled it forward to clear the overhead and cycled all 4 cylinders through their full range of motion multiple times to get all the air out and now all 4 cylinders operate like the should.

I didn't notice any smell this morning during run time but then again, I was out in the open so to speak.

I did check the hyd pump and piping for heat, it was warm but not hot, I could put my hand on the pump immediately after shutdown.

I was able to get a crows foot on the connection fitting that was leaking and got almost 1/4 turn on it and it is no longer leaking (for now anyways). Found another leak, this time on one of the hose connections for the power steering/trans oil cooling system, tightened up the clamp (will probably double clamp this since it is barbless), it's where I had to cut the return line short to tap in the pick-up tube for the PS pump. So far no more leaking from this hose.

The Hyd system now has right about 15 gallons in it and is steady right in the middle of the sight glass.

I Don't like how it starts up slowly and shuts down quick but will let ride and see if it normalizes as they machine gets broken in a bit.

It will be storming here any minute now so it's inside chores for the rest of the day. When it dries out a bit, I'll hook up to the hoe so I can see if all is well there. I can't wait to play with my hoe (that sounded a little dirty, but... I guess that IS the name of the game hehe)

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Tue May 24, 2022 8:05 pm

Update (please help if you can):

Backed up to the backhoe today, hooked up and... nothing, notta, zero, zilch. Couldn't even feel oil moving through the manifold.

Since I swapped all the hoses, I did my due diligence and triple verified all connections for supply to and return from the hoe and all the connections are correct. After lots of head scratching I proceeded to disconnect the supply and return lines on the hoe where it connects to the hoe's selector valve manifold and I DO have oil flowing all the way through the manifold but at what pressures, I don't know.

Also, my hydraulic tank gets REAL warm even after running the machine for just 5-10 minutes (even without the hoe hooked up).

At first I thought there might be an obstruction which is why I started checking lines but everything looks clear so far. Then I thought maybe the machine needs to be at a higher RPM for the hoe to operate so I ran at different speeds all the way up to 2,400 RPM but still nothing. My focus then shifted to quick disconnects. I can definitely feel the high pressure in the hose coming off the crawler but as soon as it hits that quick disco, it drops to almost nothing (feels like that anyways). I fully understand that quick discos suck for flow but it shouldn't be causing this kind of problem. The quick discos that are on the machine are the same ones that were on the machine when I bought it. They don't leak at all which is good but I'm thinking they are worn to the point where they might be pulling apart and essentially allowing the ball to stop flow through the line and if they are doing that, then the oil is practically dead-heading at the pressure line's quick disco coming from the machine. This might account for the hotter than normal hyd oil (I realize hyd oil gets warm but this is warmer than I've ever experienced) and would definitely be cutting the oil supply to the hoe. And although it's probably a stretch, it may be contributing to the hyd pump concerns I've been having at startup and shutdown since it's continually pumping to the dead headed quick disco even when they are just connected to themselves (no hoe)

When I try to put the stabilizers down, I feel NOTHING in the lever, it feels just like when the machine is shut down.

The only other thing I can think of if it's not the quick disconnects (which are old and a pain in the ass, especially when oily) is a bad relief valve somewhere??? Or some kind of bypass that's opening and not allowing oil to flow to the cylinders???

I have NO experience with backhoes so all of this is kinda Greek to me.

If anyone has any experience or even thoughts as to what might be happening I'd be thrilled to listen, I need this hoe up and running quick so I can boogie north.

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by B Town » Tue May 24, 2022 8:42 pm

Do not run your machine until the problem is identified. It sounds like you have a deadhead scenario. This can wipe your pump out very quickly. I would start by looking carefully at the disconnects.

Best regards, Bruce

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Tue May 24, 2022 8:49 pm

First thing I'm going to do is check the pressure line coming from the machine to see if maybe I left an earplug in there or something (I use them a lot to keep debris out of lines). It's highly unlikely I would miss something like that but I'm not immune to making mistakes so it's possible. If I find nothing, next is a town run for new dicos. Thanks Bruce!

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Wed May 25, 2022 9:51 am

Sure enough... pulled the QD on the pressure side and there was a paper towel hanging out... MOTHERF!!!!

So fixing that should solve the obvious problem of no backhoe response. Since it was such a serious blockage, I'm hoping it frees up flow so that it doesn't put so much drag on the engine. I mean if it is free flowing, it won't act like it does now causing the engine lag at start up and instant stop when shutting down. crossing fingers it fixes all my ailments and praying it is the only one I missed.

Last night I pinched one of the 4-in-1 bucket lines, apparently if you are off by 1 inch on placement you're screwed, as the lower levers will just shear off anything in their path. I noticed it happening just as it made contact but it did enough damage to make me want to replace that line... looks like it will be one hard line and one hose.

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Wed May 25, 2022 11:51 am

Got new quick discos... will connect and report later 🤞🤞🤞

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