use of ether to try and start,

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andyvt
420 crawler
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use of ether to try and start,

Post by andyvt » Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:15 pm

My 450c lately has been a hard starter so I have resorted to a quick burst of ether into the air cleaner.
The ether will fire off but the dozer does not always start and run.
Today after trying to start it till the batteries got low, I left it and went away. Came back an hour later and with another short burst of ether it fired right up.
This seems to be a intermittent issue.
My questions:
1 - Is using ether bad for this engine ?
2 - Any ideas why it would have this kind of starting problem? Is it a fuel related thing or something else?

Jim B
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Re: use of ether to try and start,

Post by Jim B » Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:58 am

Use of ether/starting fluid is not the best thing for any engine. JDs I have been around really don't like it and you need to be sure to use it sparingly. Has the hard starting become more of an issue as the temperature gets cooler?

Hard starting can be injection pump issues, timing, cracking pressure and spray of the nozzles, or low compression for a few things. Air intake restriction could, but not as likely unless severely restricted and would likely smoke heavily when running.

Slow cranking speed (and high starter draw) can also be a factor. You could hook up a light to the terminal for the shut off solenoid on the pump and see if power is dropping out when cranking. Hook up a boost to the batteries on it before trying to start it and see if the extra power helps. Batteries may be ok, but getting weak, based on you saying the batteries got low and you left it for a while. Do a voltage drop check at the starter to see what you have.

Just some thoughts.
Jim

Hurlbutt
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Re: use of ether to try and start,

Post by Hurlbutt » Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:35 am

I have gotten reluctant to use either on an engine I'm not sure is happy with it being used. I bought a Chinese 3 cylinder tractor that had new injectors and pump installed. I saw a video of it running after installation on the owners phone after he got it running (was rather happy with the resurrection since he got it from the original owner dead). It quit after a short time and he was not able to get it to run again. After a year his wife said there were to be no such lawn ornaments so I bought it. After not getting it to run I tore it down and found all pistons had broken ring lands and some broken rings too. My 2 cylinder tractor that was gifted to me after it had been gifted and gifted, was similar when I tore it down. There was no way to get it started cold without either for all the while my son had it (was dead on the previous two giftings). It had as much blow-by as exhaust but the loader was still useful.
There also is the old Chevy 3500 I had with the 6.5 turbo diesel with instructions to use a rag wet with gas on the air cleaner, not either.
Then, there's the old Dresser loader my brother-in-law use to use that had cabin controlled either system for starting. I guess International designed for it.
Bill

andyvt
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Re: use of ether to try and start,

Post by andyvt » Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:08 am

Jim B wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:58 am
Use of ether/starting fluid is not the best thing for any engine. JDs I have been around really don't like it and you need to be sure to use it sparingly. Has the hard starting become more of an issue as the temperature gets cooler?

Hard starting can be injection pump issues, timing, cracking pressure and spray of the nozzles, or low compression for a few things. Air intake restriction could, but not as likely unless severely restricted and would likely smoke heavily when running.

Slow cranking speed (and high starter draw) can also be a factor. You could hook up a light to the terminal for the shut off solenoid on the pump and see if power is dropping out when cranking. Hook up a boost to the batteries on it before trying to start it and see if the extra power helps. Batteries may be ok, but getting weak, based on you saying the batteries got low and you left it for a while. Do a voltage drop check at the starter to see what you have.

Just some thoughts.
Jim
It has not been that cold yet; lowest in the 40's at night and mostly 60-'s in the day, but it could be a factor.
It has newish [months old] batteries and a freshly remanned factory starter.
I have to admit I have not done a full fluids, filters etc. service yet as I put it to work immediately and have not wanted to stop and take the time.
It had been starting fine when I first got it, and mow, once started and warm, starts easily.

Jim B
350 crawler
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Re: use of ether to try and start,

Post by Jim B » Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:59 pm

I would still do a voltage drop test at the starter to see if anything shows up. I would also try putting a boost on it to see if that makes a difference in cranking speed cold. What brand/group and CCA are the batteries? If nothing else these things will give you a baseline to compare to in the future.

Hurlbutt
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Re: use of ether to try and start,

Post by Hurlbutt » Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:06 pm

If the voltage at the starter is low you could look over the battery cables, see if there is a hot spot where the voltage drop is occurring.
Bill

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LeonardL
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Re: use of ether to try and start,

Post by LeonardL » Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:57 am

You said you hadn't changed the fuel filters yet? You need to check the things mentioned just to be sure you have proper cranking speed but also go ahead and change those fuel filters. You want to be sure you are getting fuel to the IP and that your vent in the tank along with the return line to the tank are all clear and functioning. If that doesn't help then it's time to check other things.
40 plus years working on JD 350s, 400Gs, 450s and other equipment both Ag and Construction.

JWB Contracting
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Re: use of ether to try and start,

Post by JWB Contracting » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:32 pm

Are you stepping the clutch pedal to the floor? Is the mechanical clutch functioning, if you shift between gears 1 to 4 with the engine running then it working. Without the main mechanical clutch there is additional drag to spin the transmission

A Deere engine needs to be turned over quickly to start. It will not start well unless it’s in exceptional condition when spinning slowly.

Have you checked the air filters? You should have the newer style box type fuel filter so you can drain the water and reprime.

We have never wrecked a Deere engine with either. One of our 450C yard machines has always been hard starting and requires either to start on all but the warmest days. Once started it runs great and has the right power, doesn’t smoke, doesn’t use oil and very little blow by.

Fuel prime pump could also be loosing prime. Not expensive to change or try an inline check valve.
Jason Benesch

John Deere 420, 430, 440 & 350C With 3 Point Hitch
John Deere 400G With Winch
John Deere 2010 Crawler Dozer
John Deere 420, 430, 435 & 440 Wheel Tractors

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