Ulf, on your serial number plate is should say made in USA in small print just above the serial number. just under the number is should say john deere Dubuque works. if it does then its made in the USA.
andrew
JD 450 in Sweden
Hello, i have found information that the T in the end of my serial number says that it was made in Dubuque.
I have also been in contact with a JD spare parts man in the USA and when giving him all the numbers i have found on the machine and the engine he said that the machine was as Digitup has told me made in 1965, but that the engine was from 1970, the stamped numbers on the block does end with 1970, and according to him this is the year of the engine.
When i asked him if the 2510 had the same engine parts he was a bit uncertain.
Therefor i started to look through a 2510 spare parts book and found that the piston and liner kit was the same number as the one i got from the spare parts guy: AR71591
But one thing i dont understand is why the 450 has a different kit before serialnumber 102767 while the 2510 seems to be the same all the way, and i dont know how to apply the number to my machine, is it the number of the machine or the engine? either way it doesnt "fit" very well.
Of course i asked the spare parts guy about this but he could not give me a straight answer, but the kit he recommended me is 102767 and up.
The thing is that i have found a complete kit with almost everything i need, but the kit is for a 2510, and before i send for it i want to be as sure as possible that it fits.
Regards from Sweden Ulf
I have also been in contact with a JD spare parts man in the USA and when giving him all the numbers i have found on the machine and the engine he said that the machine was as Digitup has told me made in 1965, but that the engine was from 1970, the stamped numbers on the block does end with 1970, and according to him this is the year of the engine.
When i asked him if the 2510 had the same engine parts he was a bit uncertain.
Therefor i started to look through a 2510 spare parts book and found that the piston and liner kit was the same number as the one i got from the spare parts guy: AR71591
But one thing i dont understand is why the 450 has a different kit before serialnumber 102767 while the 2510 seems to be the same all the way, and i dont know how to apply the number to my machine, is it the number of the machine or the engine? either way it doesnt "fit" very well.
Of course i asked the spare parts guy about this but he could not give me a straight answer, but the kit he recommended me is 102767 and up.
The thing is that i have found a complete kit with almost everything i need, but the kit is for a 2510, and before i send for it i want to be as sure as possible that it fits.
Regards from Sweden Ulf
Ulf the Swede
ULF the best you can do is get the seals and sleeves to fit the same .Meaning in the same insets and groves as the originals were .The 2510 was built from 1966 to 1968 the motor is a 4-202 with 50 HP .The 450 was made from1964 to 1970 with57HP.Two years before to two years after the 2510 was built .Now at s/n 102767 there was a change in piston and sleeve design so this is what you have to watch . Most manufacturers changed piston and sleeve design part way through a build .It was even common to change the compression ratio as well .John Deere was no different.That is the time that they came out with the high swirl chamber 1969 . So the engine upgrade came out in 1969 just before the B model came out .Start serial # for 1970 ,450 was #102144so they changed mid year .Even when they knew that change was on the way soon . The 450B started at serial#117588 in September of 1970 they went to a 4-219 at that point .As your motor is a 1970 then your guess is as good as mine what build that engine is .It may be the new build but it is darned close to the old build as well . You will have to match your sleeves to the old ones .And so 623 of the 450 build machines were made in 1969 with a new and different sleeve design.then 14821 were made in 1970 with that new sleeve build . Piss them right off and order both sets and send the wrong one back .Good luck.Digitup.
Hello, today i contacted a company called reliance and gave them my engine numbers.
According to them, for a 202cui motor marked T32342 that has its o-rings in the block and not on the sleeves, there is only one kind of liner kit.
So as long as you have these factors it should not matter if the engine is in a 450 or a 2510
I have asked people so many questions now, that i am starting to feel like a real pest
Ulf
According to them, for a 202cui motor marked T32342 that has its o-rings in the block and not on the sleeves, there is only one kind of liner kit.
So as long as you have these factors it should not matter if the engine is in a 450 or a 2510
I have asked people so many questions now, that i am starting to feel like a real pest
Ulf
Ulf the Swede
Hello again, today i have worked on the 450 all day.
I cleaned the o-ring grooves for the liners, the deck of the block and everything else.
After measuring the height of the liners above the block i started putting it together.
I installed the liners, pistons/rods, oil pan, and i just had time to put the cylinderhead on before it was dark outside.
Everything fits and all has gone well so far, so i will continue tomorrow.
I wish i could work in a garage of some sort like digitup suggested, but no such luck, it is quite cold outside now but at least the worst work is done (i hope)
Ulf
I cleaned the o-ring grooves for the liners, the deck of the block and everything else.
After measuring the height of the liners above the block i started putting it together.
I installed the liners, pistons/rods, oil pan, and i just had time to put the cylinderhead on before it was dark outside.
Everything fits and all has gone well so far, so i will continue tomorrow.
I wish i could work in a garage of some sort like digitup suggested, but no such luck, it is quite cold outside now but at least the worst work is done (i hope)
Ulf
Ulf the Swede
In this area we can get a temporary tent building just big enough for a crawler to fit in for about 350. bucks .I bought one two years ago and have used it several times [A temporary car garage] .The snow load will do them in quickly but I hope it has not turned that bad yet .Good to hear from you .Digitup.
Hello, nice to hear from you to digitup, i have spent another day working on the 450.
The good news: everything regarding the engine has gone well, i have started it, retorqued the heads, adjusted the valves and so on.
There were no leaks and it ran just fine.
The bad news: it is impossible to turn the machine in either direction, it just goes in a straight line.
I have not realy worked on crawler before so i am not 100% sure how the steering system works.
The breaks are a little bit weaker on the right hand side and they dont release properly on either side,and when i use the breakpedal it doesnt come back up like it should.
But the bigger problem i think are the steering clutches, apart from the breaks, there is no reaction at all when i pull the steering levers.
How are the breaks and clutches actuated? is there simply a mecanical connection from the levers or is perhaps the hydraulic system involved?
What do you think the problem is/ what should i check first?
Thats more stupid questions from me but on a new subject
Ulf
The good news: everything regarding the engine has gone well, i have started it, retorqued the heads, adjusted the valves and so on.
There were no leaks and it ran just fine.
The bad news: it is impossible to turn the machine in either direction, it just goes in a straight line.
I have not realy worked on crawler before so i am not 100% sure how the steering system works.
The breaks are a little bit weaker on the right hand side and they dont release properly on either side,and when i use the breakpedal it doesnt come back up like it should.
But the bigger problem i think are the steering clutches, apart from the breaks, there is no reaction at all when i pull the steering levers.
How are the breaks and clutches actuated? is there simply a mecanical connection from the levers or is perhaps the hydraulic system involved?
What do you think the problem is/ what should i check first?
Thats more stupid questions from me but on a new subject
Ulf
Ulf the Swede
well you are moving along anyway .Now the 450Bs had a hydraulic actuator for power assist steering I am not sure about the 450s though.Sounds like the clutches are seized and If you have the room then work the clutches a bit to see if they will release if they come a little bit they will work the rust out but may not move at all then you would have to take the units apart and clean the multiple plates up Good luck Digitup.
-
Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2904
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
The early 450's have dry steering clutches, the later ones are wet. I think the change occured with the 450C, but if the 450's are like the 350's then there were some late-production 450B's with wet clutches. As I recall, you figured out your 450 was a straight-450 (no suffix letter), so you'd have dry clutches.
They made up of a stack of interleaved fiber discs and steel discs. The machine drives the center of the fiber discs and they couple via friction to the steel discs, which drive the drum/housing via the outer diameter. There is a pressure plate that forces the fibers and steels together and provide drive coupling.
When you go to steer, the lever releases the pressure plate via a throwout bearing, and the drive uncouples allowing the fiber discs to slip past the steels. Then, and you have to adjust this timing, a brake band tightens up on the outer diameter of the steering clutch disc housing, stopping that track. The other side just drives around the stopped side, of course and you steer.
The issue is, that just a little moisture in the housing will form a small rust film onto the surfaces of the steel discs, and the danged thing will keep on driving even with the pressure plate thrown out all the way, and the brake band applied. Sometimes, you can get it freed up by going first forward and then backward and you pulling on the steering lever while you do so.
Now, if water or oil has flowed into the clutch housing, then the fiber discs get swelled up and no amount of rocking will free the thing up. The only cure in this case is to replace the whole shooting match. That means dropping the rails and yanking the whole final drive housing off, of course, which is not a fun job.
These issues are, of course, why they eventually changed to wet clutch packs. Design them to be in oil in the first place, and then they keep on working for a lot longer time.
In my experience with both a 420 and a 350 is that sitting is bad. So bad, in fact, I call the resulting issues 'Sit-Itis', like it's some sort of disease. I always keep my crawlers under cover (pole barn) and take them out at least ever other week for a spin even if I have no job to use the thing on. It prevents the dreaded sititis.
The early 450's have dry steering clutches, the later ones are wet. I think the change occured with the 450C, but if the 450's are like the 350's then there were some late-production 450B's with wet clutches. As I recall, you figured out your 450 was a straight-450 (no suffix letter), so you'd have dry clutches.
They made up of a stack of interleaved fiber discs and steel discs. The machine drives the center of the fiber discs and they couple via friction to the steel discs, which drive the drum/housing via the outer diameter. There is a pressure plate that forces the fibers and steels together and provide drive coupling.
When you go to steer, the lever releases the pressure plate via a throwout bearing, and the drive uncouples allowing the fiber discs to slip past the steels. Then, and you have to adjust this timing, a brake band tightens up on the outer diameter of the steering clutch disc housing, stopping that track. The other side just drives around the stopped side, of course and you steer.
The issue is, that just a little moisture in the housing will form a small rust film onto the surfaces of the steel discs, and the danged thing will keep on driving even with the pressure plate thrown out all the way, and the brake band applied. Sometimes, you can get it freed up by going first forward and then backward and you pulling on the steering lever while you do so.
Now, if water or oil has flowed into the clutch housing, then the fiber discs get swelled up and no amount of rocking will free the thing up. The only cure in this case is to replace the whole shooting match. That means dropping the rails and yanking the whole final drive housing off, of course, which is not a fun job.
These issues are, of course, why they eventually changed to wet clutch packs. Design them to be in oil in the first place, and then they keep on working for a lot longer time.
In my experience with both a 420 and a 350 is that sitting is bad. So bad, in fact, I call the resulting issues 'Sit-Itis', like it's some sort of disease. I always keep my crawlers under cover (pole barn) and take them out at least ever other week for a spin even if I have no job to use the thing on. It prevents the dreaded sititis.
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Hello everybody, today i have had a look at the steering systom of Berta, as the current owner calls this 450.
I got the steering brakes and the brake pedal working properly after some work with getting all the stuck parts loose, so now the breaks release as they should and the breakpedal comes back up again too.
When i took of the covers of to inspect the clutches/breaks i noticed that there was 3 bolts missing and the gasket was broken on the right hand side, one could also see that water had leaked in on that side.
Anyway, when i was done with the breaks i "overadjusted" the clutches to make the pressureplates release more and then i did a little bit of brutal driving.
Almost rightaway the righthand side clutch came free, so i adjusted it back again, and now it seems to work ok.
The lefthand side though wont release nomather what i do, so that side will haveto come apart i guess.
Stange that the side that looks much worse works but not the other i think.
Another strange thing is that the clutch on the left side looks much thicker and it takes an abnormal amount of adjusting before i can make the pressure plate move by pulling the steering lever.
Coluld the discs have swelled up that much from moisture?
That side looked real nice and dry.
Ulf
I got the steering brakes and the brake pedal working properly after some work with getting all the stuck parts loose, so now the breaks release as they should and the breakpedal comes back up again too.
When i took of the covers of to inspect the clutches/breaks i noticed that there was 3 bolts missing and the gasket was broken on the right hand side, one could also see that water had leaked in on that side.
Anyway, when i was done with the breaks i "overadjusted" the clutches to make the pressureplates release more and then i did a little bit of brutal driving.
Almost rightaway the righthand side clutch came free, so i adjusted it back again, and now it seems to work ok.
The lefthand side though wont release nomather what i do, so that side will haveto come apart i guess.
Stange that the side that looks much worse works but not the other i think.
Another strange thing is that the clutch on the left side looks much thicker and it takes an abnormal amount of adjusting before i can make the pressure plate move by pulling the steering lever.
Coluld the discs have swelled up that much from moisture?
That side looked real nice and dry.
Ulf
Ulf the Swede
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