Trying to revive a 450B... need some direction please

[RMilanese]

Hi All, I'm Rob and I'm new to the forum. As of this past week my father and I started to try and revive an old 450B with a 4-way Loader bucket and a Backhoe that hasn't run or moved for at least five years or so.....uncovered I've been doing some research so I've got a few ideas of my own, but experience trumps book knowledge every time so lay it on me... Sorry for the long winded explanation that follows, but I suspect the clue to whats going on may lie in the way things played out, so here we go.

First issue was the starter, totally frozen up from the solenoid to the windings, it wouldn't even turn once i got it out of the machine. So for starters, I sourced one of the newer gear reduction starters that your members spoke so highly of, and after crafting a few special tools to get the bolts on, (loader arms down) we finally got it in place.

Now this is where it gets interesting...thought it was in neutral, foot clutch depressed but steering clutches engaged, and the first quick bump of the starter saw the machine literally lurch forward. not what i was expecting and as such I quickly released the starter button. Now I don't mean to imply the machine drove a foot, or even a few inches, but the final drive sprockets defiantly loaded up and started to rotate both tracks. After checking to make sure neutral was in fact selected and pulling back on both steering clutches I tried to crank again, but due to a totally separate starter engagement issue, we wouldn't have it cranking it again for a few hours.

I finally got it cranking normally after a series of loosening bolts, tapping of the starter, and slightly re positioning it....repeatedly. We deducted (after removing the starter to inspect and scratching our heads repeatedly) that the new starter gear, coupled with rusty flywheel and possibly a slightly sloppy alignment was preventing the starter gear from fully engaging the flywheel, as when tested with a meter, the starter windings weren't energizing....any way, like I said, Cranks fine now.

So, with the selector in neutral and now both steering clutches pulled just in case she lurches again, she fired right up as if it had been five hours since last run, not five plus years....amazing

Now the bad....That first quick bump of the starter was the only time that I got any sort of inclination that this old girl was going to move on her tracks. steering clutches and foot clutch released, hi, low and reverse in any of the four gears wont even take up the slack in the track, much less move the machine. It feels like the motor is totally disconnected from any driven gearing whatsoever.... I was able to get the attachments going, and aside from a few obvious loader lines that are leaking and need replacement I was really starting to be encouraged that things were looking up and I would be loading her on a low boy in no time.... But this project is a no-go if I cant get her to walk, or at least limp on her own.

So please, help me save my first Yellow 450B...I've all ready got a nice shady spot picked out for her in the back yard . I have the basic general mechanical knowledge and tools (including the pressure gauge I suspect I'm going to need) and if I cant fix it, darn sure my father can. But what I really need to know is, where do I start troubleshooting a total lack of ANY locomotion... especially after the machine almost started rolling away when I first engaged the starter???

[Labparamour]

Good Afternoon,

There are many on the forum who can offer more than me. However, I might suggest getting a manual and pressure gauge. Check fluid levels.
There are rubber plugs on the bellhousing that might allow a view of the clutch to see if that is an issue. There is a 2" bung on top of the tranny for checking pressures... Here is the manual page for troubleshooting drivetrain.
450 by Darryl, on Flickr
You can order pdf versions of the manual.
Good luck,
DB

[Labparamour]

HLR by Darryl, on Flickr

Another page for checking some of the pressures for shifting...

[RMilanese]

Little update.... Got my hands on the full manual, but I still have a few questions. This 450B has the HLR and gear lever on the left battery box hump and I cant seem to find where to hook up the pressure gauge. Feels like I'm missing something.
Also, It appears that the fluid level in the HLR is low, approximately a third of the way up to the low level line... I know it needs fluid, but from all of your experience is that low enough to somehow cause the machine to not move at all....? I'm trying to figure out if I need to walk away from this machine or if its worth keeping on... Already into it for many man hours and 100 for a starter. I don't want to dump another 50 in 303 fluid into an HLR that I know has at least some water in it (gets frothy when running)
HELP PLEASE!!!

[RMilanese]

Ok Guys, I have a few hundred $ and close to a hundred man hours trying to get this machine out of an old friends back yard (he is recently deceased and cant answer any questions)....and now I'm beginning to think I'm wasting my time.

I was assured that the machine ran and worked when parked over 5 years ago, and i set a pretty simple threshold on getting totally vested and hauling this thing out of here. I figured if I could drive it across the yard to get to the trailer, without dragging anything significant, i would take it home and give it proper love...

I have done everything except to test pressure in the HLR, and as I understand it is used more for tuning than catastrophic failure troubleshooting, somehow I think I hit a wall.

So here it is, starts, runs, hydraulics work (well enough), HLR fluid level is now at the low fill level after adding a gallon, settles nicely overnight, but gets extra frothy when run... and I get nothing and i mean nothing when the machine is put in gear, or the shifter is manipulated. No change in sound, no jolt, no nothing. I need the advice of someone who knows this drive line, short of that, I don't know what else to try.

I would be willing to spend some capitol on a seasoned jd450B mechanic if he thought he could help... I'm in Lower Litchfield County, CT.... anyone local? or anyone else have an idea to try?

[jtrichard]

bite the bullet...... go buy some fluid if shes sucking AIR it WONT move and the fluid will get frothy

[RMilanese]

I get that, I was even willing to believe that adding fluid up to the fill line could somehow make a difference... I was already questioning the low and frothy fluid...Last post updated that I added about a gallon and it is now at the minimum operating level. Water, though not a good transmission additive, is, like 303, still a fluid. Many in the forestry forums have spoken about water in the HLR being a common occurrence.... so, unless someone with specific type experience tells me that this condition should render this particular drive line totally dead, I need to believe there is another answer.

[RMilanese]

After reading my post, I just wanted to clarify one thing....JTRichard, Sorry for the trite reply. I appreciate any input, I wasn't trying to be dismissive or rude. I was simply trying to reiterate the details as I had just gotten done testing the last of my nerves trying to get some results and I am frustrated that I get absolutely NO response to the sprockets. As I understand it, milky fluid shouldn't completely stop a 450b in its tracks.

I resolved to at least keep on going until I can get the pressure gauge plug out and get a proper reading....

Until then, for those that care, here are a few pics







just previewed, links not working I guess. They work if you copy url to browser, not sure why they wont display

[shinnery]

I looked at the pictures by copying the links and thought I would try to repost them.

https://goo.gl/photos/iscLxWXDNeUsM7oi8

https://goo.gl/photos/28gBkE6wPJVpRrtx6

Well here they are as clickable links.
Bryce

[77 Ford]

Just spit balling here but I know the dry clutch machines are pretty bad about seizing up after setting a few years. Is it possible the clutches were locked and when it started it ripped the material and basically both steering clutches are bad?

I've read many many articles where people have the dry clutch machines and have to ram them into large trees to try and get the clutches to disengage.

It sounds like you've covered all the basic to me, but I'm certainly no expert.

[Lavoy]

There is a disconnect between the engine and trans, I think it is a little lever on the LH floorboard, at least it is on 2010, not sure on 450.. If that is up, the trans is disconnected, or if the clutch is bad, it could be slipping. I would check that too. I would also fill the oil all the way up, 303 is now HyGard, but equivalent is readily available from many sources.
My guess is that it is something fairly simple, you just have not found it yet.
Lavoy

[RMilanese]

little update here... Went back this AM and put in a few more hours and after cycles of shock and heating, the plug for the pressure line finally broke free. I made some common sense adjustments to the clutch lever to assure the prescribed amount of free play then started it up in neutral to finish the tuning. what follows are my notes:

*all pressures in psi

Started at Hi Idle HLR in Neutral, adjusted per procedure to initial max pressure 220 then a bit more to 210 , adjustment nut screwed in one more full turn per procedure reduced pressure to 190. Noted at this time that aprox. **LEAK (see below)** 1/8 petal travel reduces pressure to 100, release recovers to 190shift to reverse shows pressure drop to 25-30, no recovery in pressure. shift to neutral shows a pressure of 60 which falls over time to 25-30. no recovery to pressure after a shutdown and restart in neutral shows a pretty steady 30. any shift to H or R shows instant drop to 20psi but no recovery.

Important note... it was clear up to the beginning of this post by palpating the line, that I was getting little to no flow through the trans cooler hose that splits off the radiator...so my common sense free play adjustment clearly had some effect as we were clearly now building pressure.... HOWEVER! at the point where I placed the asterisks in the above notes was the time i noted a SIGNIFICANT leak in the metal return line just forward of the starter for the trans cooler return. At the end of the test the milky slurry was just hanging on to the veru bottom of the dipstick, so i assume the errant pressure readings toward the end were due to low fluid level

My assessment is that while this certainly doesn't condemn the project based on the HLR being faulty, it seems that every time I get a promising result with this machine, I get knocked two steps back by a busted line (at least this one helped drain most of the crap out of the trans case.) I am certainly capable of fixing this line, but at what cost and how many hours baking in the sun. The 100 in hy-guard is the least of my concerns, but until that line is fixed its just going to piss on the ground just as fast. I came into this project fully understanding I was going to have to replace nearly every soft hose on the machine to the tune of thousands, I was ok with that....unfortunately the harder to replace and more expensive metal pre-formed lines are the ones that have hampered me this far, the first being one of the 4 main loader curved feeds that traverse the front of the battery box before coupling to soft hoses. AT least that one had a clear plan... it would hold enough to get it across the yard and I could address it later in the comfort of my shop when i really started restoring... This tyranny line would have to be done before I've even gotten any movement and I'm getting discouraged...there is what amounted to compost from all the leaves twigs and such that have piled into all the cracks and crevices and have apparently eroded the metal lines quite a bit.... I'm on the fence and I think a smart man might cut his loses, yet I find myself looking for reasons to continue.

I though I might be able to cheat for now and cut the soft cooler lines as they come out of the tranns and just loop them for testing and loading, but even that wont really be simple or easy to get to..

when i saw the initial pressures I was encouraged and I thought to myself, could it be now that both drive clutches are spinning hoplessly? according to my friends widow, they were both recently done and I noted the relatively fresh sealant around the top covers... There is some question as to whether this machine has dry or wet clutches... is there an inspection cover or an easy way to find out and/or observe if the clutches are slipping? I know the dry clutch B had a drain hole at the least... where is that located, I'd like to pull it and see what I see....

Lavoy, I had considered your advice, but i think you would agree that having seen the pressures and initial responses, its unlikely I'm seeing any clutch slippage, PS the Engine clutch on a 450B is the last 1/4 travel of the clutch petal and as I understand only used for shifting gears 1-4... but if my assumption is wrong please let me know.

77ford... Like i though to myself above before i even read your post, I'm wondering if this is possible... my father was operating the tractor during the pressure tests and i was taking notes on what where and when pressure wise and the initial shift to reverse (before any significant fluid loss) i would have though would have been sufficient pressure to lock the clutch, however my father said it is possible that at that time the 1-4 shift was in the neutral between 3-4 so I guess its inconclusive... I just guessed that if anything, assuming dry clutches, I would have expected them to be locked up tight, not spinning hopelessly, so again, not sure. this is what drives my questions about how to tell the difference between wet and dry and how to observe/drain them.

Shinnery, thanks for the re-post. I don't do a lot of social networking stuff and haven't posted pics to a forum in years... I am quite computer savvy, I just have little use for Facebook, flicker and the lot, mostly because I know to much about internet in-security to want my stuff out there...I think I may be the only 34y/o I know that has NEVER had a myspace, facebook or any other social networking account. Almost a badge of honor ... just out of curiosity,<<site admin>> any idea why they didn't post?

So folks, that's where I'm at...discouraged and defeated (almost)... What would you do here? Its a machine with a lot of potential to do work I NEED done to my property, and I've always liked a mechanical challenge (first car I had was a Triumph TR-7 w/lucas electronics, for those who know), but this has been a constant 1 step forward two steps and 5 gal of fluid back...and frankly its wearing on me. Pretty sure my father thinks I'm nuts, but he's been a good sport up to this point, and If I can find some promise for being able to drive it onto a trailer, I'm sure i can twist his arm a bit more...

Let me have it...

[RMilanese]

Just a last thought, in trying to drain the last of the crap fluid in the tranny (what didn't already leak out), what do you guys think about rigging a line to the pressure test port and letting the remaining pump pressure shoot it out for me? Pro's, Cons? PS I cant access the bottom drain...hence the creative proposal.

[eidolon]

I know nothing about your particular machine (I own a 350B and an IH 500E), but your early comment on frothy fluid stuck in my mind. Is it still doing that despite added fluid? Frothy generally = air leak (on suction side). Milky, OTOH, = water in oil. My old 500 has a large rubber hose that draws from oil reservoir and feeds fluid to reverser. One time, that hose got knocked around and the thing started sucking a little air (doesn't take much). Wouldn't move an inch. If you don't have such a hose connection, is there a chance there might be a gasket or seal letting air in on suction side? Just brainstorming - sometimes that helps joggle another thought that might be solution.
Like someone else said, I have a feeling it is a simple single problem somewhere that's causing your headache.

[RMilanese]

Seems that hard line that I split is a hard one to procure... I just searched to see if anyone had ever replaced that hard line with a soft hydraulic line and came up with a question posted on this board in 2009

http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... 1ff55c2100

....no one ever answered him.

So maybe you can all answer me... the only hard section of those cooler lines run on top of the armor under the engine. They both originate and terminate both at the tranny and at the cooler with what looks like glorified heater hose, why cant they be removed and replaced with a modern heat resistant ect. soft hydraulic line???

And more so, can anyone with experience troubleshooting transmission pressures comment on my above posted findings?