Just "Refreshed" my IP pump, now Hard Starting...

[twistedwillys]

Hello all!!!

I just finished "Refreshing" my injection pump on my 350 Crawler/Loader and am having trouble with getting it started (cold/hot) and could use some advice.

The backstory: Typical Mouse Turds (EIC) governor weight ring disintegration was causing the typical issues. We tried for hours to line up both lines, but could never get the lines right or be able to slide the pin into the flywheel. SO I marked the Governor ring with a center punch directly across from the line on the distributor head and then pulled the injection pump. All came apart well and the motor stayed in it's current position and was never rotated at all.

After I finished replacing the EIC ring and all the o-rings and gaskets I slid the injection pump right back onto the driveshaft without any difficulty (Slid right on and engaged the tab on the driveshaft without any kind of resistance.)

TIP OF THE DAY: To keep the umbrella seals from rolling over during installation, I took a big zip tie (the bigger the better so it's wider) and turned it inside out (so that the zipper part would not catch (one side is smooth and the other side has the grooves)) and used it to squeeze the umbrella seal smaller onto the shaft. With a light lube, as you install the pump onto the shaft it will push the zip tie off the seal as the seal slides into the pilot tube. Then you undo (or cut) the zip tie and continue installing the pump onto the shaft. WORKED GREAT FOR ME!

After a lot of cranking and bleeding the injectors, we finally got fuel coming out of them all. But still, no start... weak battery. SO after charging the battery overnight we attempted again... Fuel to the injectors, great cranking speed, a little bit of whitish blue smoke but still no fire. Then while cranking we used small shots (very small) of either and instant fire... but it was like starting a jet engine... had to keep using a little laughing gas to keep it going until it built up enough speed and took off on it's own. Once it started hitting on it's own, it responded as it should to throttle and would idle fine, throttle up fine (smoke would go greyish then to a nice black smoke while rpms were increasing). Seemed to respond nice as it should. Although, no load would have alot more white smoke than I remember from prior to IP refresh.

Ran the motor for 5 or 6 minutes, then shut it down... Attempted to restart and no go... Had to gently use a little either to get it to fire... giving it a little shot every couple of seconds until it finally takes off. Its like it has a miss on one of the cylinders until it finally decides to go... I attribute this to still having air in one of the lines... This seems to be getting a little better with the more time I run the engine.

I've shut the motor off half a dozen times and attempted to restart with the same result... no go until we hit it with a lite shot of either until it gets going on it's own.

At this time I decide to attempt to track it back to the shop and out of the remote area where it's been sitting for the last few months. As I do this it started out fine, but quickly feels like its bogging down and losing power until I put the clutch in, then the rpms recover and I can go on again.

My questions are (Sorry for the long backstory) :

Is the hard starting related to the injection pump timing needing to be rotated towards or away from the block?

What does the different color of smoke indicate?

Thanks for any advice you can provide!


Neil

[MarkW]

Nice tip on the zip ties.

To advance the timing the top of the IP moves towards the block, I am just not cetain that will make much of a difference to what you have. My first thought would be if you checked/adjusted the roller distance on the pump rotor head but that is just a guess. Is the fuel fresh? I would also check the lift pump and filters, loosen the line at the IP and make sure you get a nice squirt of fuel.

Good luck!

[MarkW]

You may also have compression issues due to stuck or cracked rings. I understand how tempting it is to use ether but it may make the problem worse.

[twistedwillys]

Nice tip on the zip ties.

To advance the timing the top of the IP moves towards the block, I am just not cetain that will make much of a difference to what you have. My first thought would be if you checked/adjusted the roller distance on the pump rotor head but that is just a guess. Is the fuel fresh? I would also check the lift pump and filters, loosen the line at the IP and make sure you get a nice squirt of fuel.

Good luck!

Thanks for the reply... It appears to me that the pump is rotated as far away from the block as it can be (at least I remember looking at the pin in the slot of the mounting flange being all the way towards the outside... I admittedly didn't mark the exact rotation of it when I pulled it off, but all the lines were bent at just the right angle for the threads to start without any issues.

When I was refreshing the pump, I paid particular attention to not move anything other than to replace o-rings and seals and then reassemble in the same location. I didn't disassemble the pump head at all past what I needed to in order to replace the EIC ring.

I have done tests on all the lines, feed, return to IP, check valve, return and feed from the tank and lift pump flow. All seemed very good. Fuel is fresh, only a few months old now. It was fresh from the can the day the IP went on vacation.

It did fire up on it's own 1 time though. But even then it took some cranking.

To me, it's the smoke color that is indicating SOMETHING. This machine ran great and never really smoked prior to the EIC ring disintegrating. It even started and ran smooth and great WITHOUT the EIC, but it would slowly die down to an idle. It was only a week from the point of last running to removal and replacement of the IP, so I find it hard to believe anything major happened to the rings to cause them to stick or something in that short amount of time... Now, I do agree, the laughing gas may not of done it any favors... but we are aware of the risks of using the gas on a diesel so we were very lite on our shots of either... hopefully we didn't do too much.

Do you think the color of the smoke could be an indicator of an air leak or lean fuel condition? I know black is rich... is greyish white to lean for a diesel?

Thanks for all the help!


Neil

[DrLoch]

Sounds like the injector pump timing isn't correct.

When I did mine I removed the pin and cover from the back of the block and turned the motor over using the ring gear on the flywheel with a long screw driver and pry bar until I could get the pin in. Make sure the hole in the flywheel where that the pin goes into is cleared/cleaned out. I also marked that hole with white paint so I could see if I went to far. Once the pin was in I removed the IP timing cover and looked to be sure the lines on the governor weight retainer and cam were lined up before removing the pump. Of course as luck would have it the first time I got the pin in the lines didn't line up and I had to make another revolution to get them lined up. You have to be on the compression stroke of #1. If you aren't sure remove the valve cover and look at the rockers for #1 to make sure they are both up.

You could be 180 out but I don't think it would run that way.

Good luck and post your results

[LeonardL]

There is also the possibility that your machine has a second timing mark location to help with what was said in the last post. Which is spot on by the way.
On most of the older Deere engines... not all but most, there is a timing mark on the crankshaft pulley. This mark will give reference to the number one cylinder, top dead center, compression stroke. There will be a mating mark on the engines front cover on the lower right corner area. It is hard to see but will be to the front and behind the oil filter. The crank pulley will have a line that will line up with the indicator cast into the front cover.
When the flywheel pin is in the timing hole and this timing mark on the front crank pulley is aligned as well as the two lines inside the injector pump, you should be in time.
An additional comment on the flywheel timing hole. Make sure it is the actual timing pin hole. On some flywheels I have seen, the balance holes drilled by the factory to balance the flywheel, will give you a false alignment. The pin will drop in one of these holes instead of the actual timing pin hole.

[twistedwillys]

Sounds like the injector pump timing isn't correct.

When I did mine I removed the pin and cover from the back of the block and turned the motor over using the ring gear on the flywheel with a long screw driver and pry bar until I could get the pin in. Make sure the hole in the flywheel where that the pin goes into is cleared/cleaned out. I also marked that hole with white paint so I could see if I went to far. Once the pin was in I removed the IP timing cover and looked to be sure the lines on the governor weight retainer and cam were lined up before removing the pump. Of course as luck would have it the first time I got the pin in the lines didn't line up and I had to make another revolution to get them lined up. You have to be on the compression stroke of #1. If you aren't sure remove the valve cover and look at the rockers for #1 to make sure they are both up.

You could be 180 out but I don't think it would run that way.

Good luck and post your results

Thank you for your reply DrLoch, I'll plan on checking the timing this weekend and see what I find. I had a suspicion that it might be timing related as well... Hopefully this weekend I can confirm that! I will post my results as soon as I have some solid findings.

Thanks!


Neil

[twistedwillys]

There is also the possibility that your machine has a second timing mark location to help with what was said in the last post. Which is spot on by the way.
On most of the older Deere engines... not all but most, there is a timing mark on the crankshaft pulley. This mark will give reference to the number one cylinder, top dead center, compression stroke. There will be a mating mark on the engines front cover on the lower right corner area. It is hard to see but will be to the front and behind the oil filter. The crank pulley will have a line that will line up with the indicator cast into the front cover.
When the flywheel pin is in the timing hole and this timing mark on the front crank pulley is aligned as well as the two lines inside the injector pump, you should be in time.
An additional comment on the flywheel timing hole. Make sure it is the actual timing pin hole. On some flywheels I have seen, the balance holes drilled by the factory to balance the flywheel, will give you a false alignment. The pin will drop in one of these holes instead of the actual timing pin hole.

Thanks for the additional insight LeonardL. I'm very familiar with timing engines by the crankshaft on Autos, so I follow what your saying and will use that advice as well this weekend to make sure I've got it in the correct spot...

Before I pulled the pump, I tried locating the hole for the pin and thought I had found it a couple of times, but no marks were to be found... I wonder if I had found one of those said balancing holes that the pin would also slide into.

Thanks again for the additional insight!!


Neil

[DrLoch]

LeonardL, you are certainly correct about the balancing holes in the flywheel, but, if memory serves me they weren't exactly in line with the hole that pin does go into.... could be wrong... it's an age thing.

[LeonardL]

You are correct about the holes not being exactly in line with the timing pin. The ones I had issue with were the deeper holes that seemed to grab the pin just enough to make me think I was in the right hole when I wasn't. The newer flywheels had been changed so the balance holes were no longer close enough to grab the timing pin. Which was a good thing because I'm just simple enough to keep trying to put the pin where it didn't belong. As for the age thing? Well I can certainly relate to that. I was told that things got better with age. However I have since learned that I was lied to.

[twistedwillys]

You are correct about the holes not being exactly in line with the timing pin. The ones I had issue with were the deeper holes that seemed to grab the pin just enough to make me think I was in the right hole when I wasn't. The newer flywheels had been changed so the balance holes were no longer close enough to grab the timing pin. Which was a good thing because I'm just simple enough to keep trying to put the pin where it didn't belong. As for the age thing? Well I can certainly relate to that. I was told that things got better with age. However I have since learned that I was lied to.

First to answer the question on everyone's minds... They DO RUN 180 Degrees out!!!! Seems to run far enough to get the old Dozer back to the shop some 100 yards away under it's own power once I got it running.

The final results of tonights wrenching session are of Success! It lives again and starts with just a quick turn of the ignition key like it did before the Injection pump took a crap. Haven't tested it fully, but it runs fine and seems to be all cured of it's prior EIC ring failure characteristic.

The things I learned tonight are:

1. They will run even when they are 180 degrees out of time.

2. When they do run out of time, they smoke a helluva lot more!

3. There is a crankshaft timing mark. Mine had a 3 then a line. Once I got that lined up with the pointer, I removed the injection pump and lined the dot on the drive-shaft up with the dot on the governor ring inside the pump (as you look down the pilot tube). Mine was indeed 180 degrees out from each other. I stuck a large flat blade screw driver into the pilot tube and turned the pump until it matched the position of the dot on the drives-haft when they are assembled.

Even after removing all the injector lines to remove the pump a second time, it still fired right up after I got it reassembled! No bleeding needed, which surprised me!

To make a long story, short... I'd like to say a BIG THANK YOU to all who had helped me get FITO the dozer back up and running!


Thanks again to all who responded to my plea for help!


Neil

[DrLoch]

Well, I guess it's nice to know that it will run 180 out.... Glad to here you had success. I'm everyone following this post would be interested in knowing that a diesel will run when the injector timing is 180 degrees out.

Did you check the timing marks in the injector pump window also to see if it is injector timing is advanced - retarded from the marks?

[twistedwillys]

Well, I guess it's nice to know that it will run 180 out.... Glad to here you had success. I'm everyone following this post would be interested in knowing that a diesel will run when the injector timing is 180 degrees out.

Did you check the timing marks in the injector pump window also to see if it is injector timing is advanced - retarded from the marks?

I was never able to find BOTH lines. The fixed line was there, the mark I made before I removed the pump was there, but factory line on the one that rotated wasn't there. I do not ever recall seeing it once I tore everything down either. :-/ IS it possible that it didn't have the second marked line?

I'm going to try to do some pushing with it tonight or in the next couple of days to see how it does... Wish me luck! My gut feeling is it will be back as good as it used to be before the pump took a vacation.

Thanks!


Neil

[MarkW]

First to answer the question on everyone's minds... They DO RUN 180 Degrees out!!!!
Neil

Well you learn something new every day!

Congrats on getting it sorted out.

[twistedwillys]

First to answer the question on everyone's minds... They DO RUN 180 Degrees out!!!!
Neil

Well you learn something new every day!

Congrats on getting it sorted out.

Well.... Success was short lived. Was working last night for about 15 minutes (Ran flawlessly) clearing some brush along the side of a hill where I will be building a guest house and it started loosing power again and died right as I got it to level ground. The loader bucket/blade was almost all the way down so I tried to fire it back up and it fired up and ran for just enough time to get the bucket in the air far enough I could get my supports in place on the rams.

After that, it would not re-fire at all... I waited an hour or so and tried again, still nothing... by this time it was dark so I quit for the night.

Looks like I'll be checking for plugged lines/check valves again. I didn't hear any suction when I removed the fuel cap...

Here we go again... :-/ I'll post back once I do some basic trouble shooting.

Enjoy!



Neil