New to crawlers, undercarraige questions?

[s281jim]

Howdy all, I'm new to the site. I built a house on 10 acres of forest land, I want a dozer to maintain the VERY steep driveway, and to flatten out some areas for garages/sheds, and for general purpose (firewood/clearing brush). A family friend retired from the local JD dealership, he tells me to get a 450E, so I am shopping around now.

I plan on using the dozer maybe 100 hrs. the first year, and then maybe 20hrs./yr. after that. A lot of the classified adds list the undercarriage by percentage, would a machine with 50% undercarriage last me 20 years (based on the math above)?

What does "undercarriage" include? Just track chain and sprockets?

What does the phrases "Pins just turned" or "Pins never turned" mean? Thanks for your help.

[77 Ford]

I'm not an expert but here is my opinion on the subjects raised.

1) Be very careful when they say 50% it's probably 5%. One of the best ways to get overall wear is to find a chart that gives the wear of the chain and measure it. I've seen machines for example that 100% wore out was 25" between pins and it was 26", so that indicates it's beyond service life. Here is a chart I use:

https://sites.google.com/site/crawlerhe ... ndbushings


There are many many variables that dictate wear, for my math I use a 3,000 hours useful life. If a machine was truly 50% it would have approximately 1,500 hours life left in it. ( You can still have break down issues within the service life).

2) "undercarriage" is everything, chain, sprockets, front roller, bottom rollers, and top roller. Anything that spins when that machine is moving. My machine had 50% left in the chains but I've got a few bottom rollers that are getting bad and a top roller with a flat spot that needs serviced.You can actually pay JD or any heavy mechanic to give you an U/C report that will list the wear of each component. Most people don't do this on the cheaper machines but an E might be worth it.

3) Inside the chain are bushings that the sprocket will ride and push on( causing wear). In years past or currently with bigger machines you could turn the pins and bushings to extend the life of the chain. Most people now think for these smaller machines it's cheaper to replace the chains with aftermarket chains then to pay and have them turned.

Here is a great paper on everything wear:

http://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/undrcarguide.pdf

Hope that helps some.

[Lavoy]

What is your dollar tolerance? Unless it is junk, 450E will be a fairly pricey machine. If it is not junk, the cost of the machine for the hours you are likely to put on does not pencil out. If it is junk, it will eat your lunch some day. Hire it done, it will be cheaper in the long run.
If you buy a crawler, and it drops a transmission or engine 3 years from now, you have a large expense that does not increase the value of the crawler, or a large, heavy yard ornament.
If a smaller crawler will do the work, I would look at 350 or even one of the two cylinders. Lot less investment, lot less risk.
Lavoy

[Tigerhaze]

Good afternoon-

If you search archived threads on here you will find quite a bit written about how to choose a crawler. You have done the most important part- identifying your needs.

As Lavoy said you also need to consider your budget and how much you really need for future maintenance versus one time construction- you may find like me it is useful to rent a larger crawler for some of the one-time stuff and buy one for the future maintenance. Also as Lavoy said, newer model crawlers generally are pricey and you have to be careful with older ones being junk.

Undercarriage is one of the items that when worn cause machines to go for sale or auction because the cost to completely rebuild can be pricey at best, or almost impossible at worst when parts are no longer available. However if you do the initial work with a rental you may be able to buy a crawler with worn undercarriage and do what you need to do.

[s281jim]

Hi Lavoy, around my area I have one source for cheap dozer work, and as you could imagine he is extremely busy. You kinda have to beg him to work for you.

$20,000 with a winch, for a decent 6-way blade machine is what I'm looking for.

Half of me wants to get a 350 (for hauling ease), but I would hate to find out it's not enough dozer for what I'd like to do.

For the minimal price difference, I'd actually like to get a 550, but the family friend says to stay away from the torque converter machines.

I'm a farmboy turned machinist; I have actually done an in frame overhaul on my buddies 550; I just want a dozer. I think it's a better investment than a boat.

[Stan Disbrow]

Hi,

Everything wears on everything else with a U/C. The sprocket teeth to the bushings. The pins to the inside of the bushings. The faces and sides of the chain links to the rollers and idlers. Everything to everything.

And, it all adds up. There are tools for determining the wear. It would be worthwhile to buy one for what you decide to shop for.

The link in the first reply is a good one for figuring out remaining life.

This one is good for really understanding U/C and how it all wears:

http://www.tpaktopc.net/files/undrcarguide.pdf

As far as size of machine goes, anything from a 420c 5-roller will do all that work you list. The difference is that a 550 would do it faster than a 450, and a 450 faster than a 350 and so on down to the 420.

If you have the time, a 420 will eventually dig as big a hole as a D8. When you are hiring it done, time is money. But not so much as when you DIY...

Stan

[mini kahuna]

if you want a crawler to have around and do your projects and improvements go for it and get one
if you just need work done it is cheaper to get the work done as needed.
owning a crawler is a love/hate type if thing, most of us have our machines because they are fun to use and we get satisfaction keeping these old machines running and doing odd jobs for us.
450e is a great machine, just make sure the undercarriage isn't wiped out, if you don't know what to look for get someone to help ypu with the wear status of the undercarriage.
if you are able to work on a machine that size if it needs something major done, that may be the right machine for you.
I would be looking for a 350 loader 4n1 bucket and winch if I had the choice, smaller yes, but much easier to work on if you need to pull her apart for a major repair.

[Jack-the-Ripper]

I like my 450s. I bought a 450c for $13,000 and used it for about 5 years building a road on my 60 acres of timber land in Idaho, up a shale cliff, not the hardest stone but after that time the undercarriage finally needed replacing. The final straw was the track chain had stretched so much that the rollers were hitting the top of the drive sprocket teeth.

I (foolishly) bought a 450b that was completely worn out. It only ran for about an hour. The primary problem with the "b" model is its dry steering clutch system that can gather water condensation that freezes the steering clutches in the "I won't drive" position. That required complete rebuild of both steering clutches. Also the rollers (top and bottom) and most other running gear parts were worn out, and the winch didn't work. I bought it for $12,000 and put about $5000 into the rebuilds, including the 6-way blade control handle linkages. It now is a primo machine although I've been lucky to have no engine or transmission problems on either dozer.

I'm currently replacing a starter, and have replaced a hydraulic oil pump, and the main "hard steel" return line from the oil tank to that pump after the frame wore a hole in it. (It is installed within the frame before the engine is installed - you have to lay on your back, cut it in pieces for removal, and replace with a flexible rubber hose). If you want to do those kinds of work, the 450 b or c can be a good value as they are available often for around $8000. If you don't like that kind of work, spend the money for a later model machine. Get a tractor mechanic or experienced owner to check out any prospective machines for you. I believe I have elucidated elsewhere on this site the details of the easily spotted worn areas on the 450b that I missed as a novice.

One of my machine has a ripper bar, the other a winch. I've never needed the winch, as a chain or two usually works to pull whatever. The rippers are very handy. I would get a 6-way hydraulic dozer instead of a loader since you can grade varying sloped areas, build roads and trails, etc. For occasional loading, rent a backhoe/loader or track hoe.

I found the dozer too brutish to use as a snow plow except on the levelest of driveways. It is much too easy to tear up your road base. A pickup with standard snow plow works much better. However in a heavy snow year, your snow berms will encroach the road and freeze and you will need a dozer to push them back.

I bought them for the joy of operation and learning to work on them. After 15 years I'm getting tired of the annoying little breakdowns whenever I want to use them. I can't imagine living on large land and not having a dozer or backhoe.

[s281jim]

Jack, great post, thanks for the tips.

My retired family friend mechanic will accompany me to look at any dozers I am serious about, but he has never owned or seriously operated one. So his evaluation will be spot on, but how does it translate to my needs.

His reasoning for the E model was that every newer model got the little updates and bug fixes, and he said he really liked the flat floorboards. He retired in '99, and was the "Powershift Guru" of the shop.

My reasoning for the winch is simple. My house is built on a limestone ridge that splits the property in half. There is approximately 2 acres that have never been logged because of the steep bank and the property lines. Theres a dozen or so very large Oaks that will yield a few saw logs each, plus firewood. Also I think the winch could come in handy to persuade trees from falling where I don't want them too. And if I don't use it, I see them listed on craigslist for $2000-$4000, I could sell it.

[Tigerhaze]

For the minimal price difference, I'd actually like to get a 550, but the family friend says to stay away from the torque converter machines

Why is that? One member of this board that uses the larger Deere crawlers commercially Digitup2) as well as Lavoy have given positive reviews of the TC machines- read it here:

http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... ght=torque

[MarkW]

Sounds like I do a fair amount of the stuff that you do and I have a 350C that I"m happy with. For the initial grunt work a bigger machine might be faster but once that is done this one is a lot more convenient.

[s281jim]

For the minimal price difference, I'd actually like to get a 550, but the family friend says to stay away from the torque converter machines

Why is that? One member of this board that uses the larger Deere crawlers commercially Digitup2) as well as Lavoy have given positive reviews of the TC machines- read it here:

http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... ght=torque

Hi Tiger, after reading that thread it makes sense to me why he doesn't care for them. Digitup and Lavoy talk about how great they are to drive and operate. My friend is not an operator, just the guy who saw them come in for rebuilds and saw the invoices. I guess in the late 80's it was $10,000 (at the dealer) for a rebuild. Which please don't read this the wrong way I have no bad words towards the TC machines. If you make a $100,000 off a machine over the years, a $10,000 bill is just the cost of doing business.

[Lavoy]

Another though would be how much "large scale" work do you need done, and once done, will a smaller dozer do all the rest of the work you need done, albeit slower? If so, hire the big stuff, do the rest yourself over the years.
Depending on how much skidding you do, a smaller crawler probably makes a better skidder unless you are talking about monsters and long.
Lavoy

[s281jim]

Being able to transport with my truck and trailer would be a huge plus. I think a 350 would be a better fit. My family's farm is less than 10 miles from my home, where I have full access to an L9000 dump, an 1840 case skidsteer (which I have done amazing things with lol), and a 1960's 580 Case hoe. I think the 350 will suit fine.

Another quick question, if a dozer is bought right (not overpaid) and maintained and shedded, and the hours are kept low, it should maintain its value?

Reason Im asking, is i see a lot of 70's 350's in the 10k range.

Last question, I promise, is where do you'all look for iron? I keep an eye on craigslist, machinerytrader, and equipmentbroker. Thanks all

[s281jim]

Did they make many 350's with pedal steer?