450BC Update

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Willie B
430 crawler
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450BC Update

Post by Willie B » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:38 pm

Today I went to pick up, and pay for the 450BC. I took along a 450G owner with more experience than I with crawlers. Before writing a check, he gave the machine a good looking over. A number of problems I hadn't noticed before popped up. The transmission case below the seat was fish plated with 3/8" steel. Presumably, cracks are concealed behind them.

We let the engine run a lot longer today than before. Smoke billowed from beneath the transmission. Foul smelling burning oil smell, and black soot were coating things back there. I found a rubber hose laying in the belly pan. The end was soggy inside with black scorched oil. I followed it to the valve cover vent.

I later talked to Mark Courchaine, (I've likely butchered his name) of Johnson VT. A more knowledgeable John Deere expert I haven't met. He told of numerous concerns with the 450B.

Ultimately I left without the tractor. I'm back in the market. Somewhat better informed.
An optimist is usually wrong, and doomed to disappointment. he is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, delighted to be wrong, and is well prepared.

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Jd450/6-way
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Post by Jd450/6-way » Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:40 pm

Sounds like how my 450 was when I got it.

Blow by and cracked cylinder sleeves leaking prestone into the oil. A complete piston and sleeve kit can fix that and make it start alot better/more power. Or it could be a cracked head.

It would push out a lot of oil and antifreeze and smell bad. And a taste that stays with you for a while.



If the price is low a engine kit and a new/used frame rail wouldn't cost to much.

How's the rest of the machine like?

s281jim
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Post by s281jim » Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:14 pm

Well, at least you had the sense to walk away. So many times my friends and family have brought home junk or overpaid because they couldnt.

I spent 6 weeks shopping for my 450, looked at 3 total, and ended up buying the best condition machine of the 3, for the lowest price of the 3. Keep an eye on Craigslist, and don't dilly-dally if a bargain pops up.

Willie B
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Post by Willie B » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:30 pm

[quote="Jd450/6-way"]Sounds like how my 450 was when I got it.

Blow by and cracked cylinder sleeves leaking prestone into the oil. A complete piston and sleeve kit can fix that and make it start alot better/more power. Or it could be a cracked head.

It would push out a lot of oil and antifreeze and smell bad. And a taste that stays with you for a while.



If the price is low a engine kit and a new/used frame rail wouldn't cost to much.

How's the rest of the machine like?[/quote]

The price was right for a useable tractor. There wasn't room in the price for a major rebuild. 8000 would leave room for sleeves, pistons, and bearings with some etc. I was concerned about the fish plates added over what I believe to be a cast iron case. Am I wrong that the housing beneath the seats with gears inside is cast iron?

I'm told the B series had a small cross member in front with a bushed hole where it connects to the track frame. The bolt tightened onto the bushing, not the cross member allowing a bit of movement without breakage. These bolts would break with extensive wear, and the shortcut was to weld crossmember to track frame. This led to breakage, which cantilevered the front of the tractor and blade off the transmission. Breaks, he said were common here. I regret wasting the trips to still not buy, but don't want a tractor I can't use.
An optimist is usually wrong, and doomed to disappointment. he is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, delighted to be wrong, and is well prepared.

pondhogvt
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450B

Post by pondhogvt » Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:13 pm

I think you made the right choice Willie, the blow by sounds like the easiest fix, but would be nice not to deal with it..

My main concern is the welded transmission case.. I have seen quite a few people on here say they welded them and it worked... that has not been my experience... I have hired expert welders,, guys really good and it never worked... the last one only two years ago with the newest and greatest special rod.... well $300 in rod and $550 in labor later it was obvious it wasn't going to work...

I am batting 1000 or negative 1000,, I have never seen it work.. Now you guys must understand that I am not a know it all but if you are paying me $50@hr to work on your dozer and I am paying the welder $80hr and the part is still broke who pays the bill??? Mark payed the bill and ate it,, and owner bought the new case.. I can't afford to mess with welding a case..

to much labor and I will never waste my time or yours trying to repair one.period, just me...

there is nothing left of that dozer if you take out the transmission..it will be a pile of parts everywhere 2ft high and then you have to put them all back on... walk away is my advice.. too much money... best of luck Mark.
350 loader,350c dozer winch and arch,450c winch and arch,450e winch and arch,D37p komatsu lgp dozer,D85 Komatsu dozer,D8k Caterpillar.

Willie B
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Post by Willie B » Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:20 pm

Mark;

Your advice is much appreciated! Getting burned is not fun.

Willie
An optimist is usually wrong, and doomed to disappointment. he is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, delighted to be wrong, and is well prepared.

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Tigerhaze
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Post by Tigerhaze » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:31 am

As you are around these machines more, it becomes easier to walk away from the basket case crawlers. Unless you have an immediate need for one (in which case I would recommend renting one or hiring the work out), I would start frequenting auctions and sales with 450s so you can get a better idea of average condition.

The problem is when you do find the "diamond in the rough" that hasn't been abused, it is REALLY hard to walk away from it. There was a 350B crawler loader in really good shape I reluctantly passed on at auction a few years back. While the ending price would have really stretched me thin, I am still kicking myself for not biting the bullet and getting it because I know I likely won't see one in that condition again except as a total restoration.
(1) JD Straight 450 crawler dozer with manual outside blade; (2) JD 2010 diesel crawler loaders; (1) JD 2010 diesel dozer with hydraulic 6-way blade; (2) Model 50 backhoe attachments, misc. other construction equipment

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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:42 am

I'll join the group impressed by your ability to walk away from this machine while you reconsider your options.
I would recommend renting one or hiring the work out
At this time of the year, machinery sometimes can be rented at a discounted price. Running a solid machine means that you get the job done quicker with less frustration. You can still keep an eye open for what you want and buy it down the road without the pressure of needing to buy to get the original project underway.

When I need digging done, I barter with my neighbor for his Case 580 backhoe, or rent a medium sized excavator from a contracting friend. I've found this cost effective. My little dozer then does the cleanup.
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

Willie B
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Post by Willie B » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:54 am

[quote="Paul Buhler"]I'll join the group impressed by your ability to walk away from this machine while you reconsider your options.

[quote]I would recommend renting one or hiring the work out[/quote]

At this time of the year, machinery sometimes can be rented at a discounted price. Running a solid machine means that you get the job done quicker with less frustration. You can still keep an eye open for what you want and buy it down the road without the pressure of needing to buy to get the original project underway.

When I need digging done, I barter with my neighbor for his Case 580 backhoe, or rent a medium sized excavator from a contracting friend. I've found this cost effective. My little dozer then does the cleanup.[/quote]

I don't NEED a crawler. A friend who mostly worked as an employee on highway construction, dabbled in his part time excavating business, and went full time for maybe 10 years, has always said nobody can justify owning a crawler. Cost of ownership always exceeds income. This was a toy. Mrs B is delighted it fell through. I'm looking, one will come up that's right.
An optimist is usually wrong, and doomed to disappointment. he is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, delighted to be wrong, and is well prepared.

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:54 pm

Hi,

I disagree. For one's own use income has nothing to do with it. Instead, replace it with cost of hiring work done. My little 420's cost of ownership has been a very small percentage of what the cost of hiring all the work she has performed since Dad brought it home in 1966.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

Willie B
430 crawler
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Location: Mount Tabor VT

Post by Willie B » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:41 pm

[quote="Stan Disbrow"]Hi,

I disagree. For one's own use income has nothing to do with it. Instead, replace it with cost of hiring work done. My little 420's cost of ownership has been a very small percentage of what the cost of hiring all the work she has performed since Dad brought it home in 1966.

Stan[/quote]

I'm an electrician. When I consider a tool purchase, I consider not only "Will it earn money?" but will I be qualified to win good jobs with this tool? A tool does not have to earn its keep to be a good addition.

An example is the backhoe. I don't pay for it with billing. It pays for itself many times over in that I get jobs big boys would have if I weren't able to do. Customers like to hire people able to do the work. Should I need to install an underground service, use a subcontractor who doesn't show up as promised, or messes up the job, the customer isn't happy. Digging my own ditch, conduit is terminated where it should be, at proper depth, with correct bedding. I'm very proud that I've never replaced an underground installation I installed. I've replaced plenty installed by others.

Earth moving is too much fun to pay others to do it. The IRS wouldn't approve, but digging is fun! Repairing machines is satisfying. Mental health has value also.
An optimist is usually wrong, and doomed to disappointment. he is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, delighted to be wrong, and is well prepared.

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Tigerhaze
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Post by Tigerhaze » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:35 pm

Remember that if using commercially, there are certain features required by OSHA (in the U.S.) that may not be on older crawlers you are considering- for instance ROPS or back up alarms. I'm not saying that they can't be found and retrofitted but should be taken into account in the price.
(1) JD Straight 450 crawler dozer with manual outside blade; (2) JD 2010 diesel crawler loaders; (1) JD 2010 diesel dozer with hydraulic 6-way blade; (2) Model 50 backhoe attachments, misc. other construction equipment

Willie B
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Post by Willie B » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:07 pm

Thus far I've flown under the radar. I got ROPS, Seat belt, and backup alarm. In a couple industrial facilities they come to the office, word spreads fast, we are gone before they get out back. I've never used heavy machinery in an industrial situation.

My younger son at age 19 worked for a landscaper. He was the only employee with a CDL. He did all the trucking. An aggregate pit didn't always have a loader operator on site. For regular customers it was load yourself, honor system for load tally. He drove in with the dump truck, an employee was there, but not friendly like usual. Zack loaded himself, when EMSHAW enforcement people showed themselves. He had no certificate of loader training, failed to use his seat belt in the loader, and failed to chock the loaders wheels on level ground.

The fines were all levied against the pit operator who passed it off as the cost of doing business.
An optimist is usually wrong, and doomed to disappointment. he is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, delighted to be wrong, and is well prepared.

oldmetalmender
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Post by oldmetalmender » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:04 pm

Yes, good for you to walk away from it. Don't do what I did and drive for 8 hours and show up very tired. The radiator had a pin hole leak squirting right at the grille. I figured it needed a radiator and that could not be too bad. My backhoe radiator was just under 300 bucks. I found out later the 450 radiator is somewhere around 1400 bucks! Fortunately it sealed just fine with some K-seal. The big thing I missed was that the seller started the dozer up and after just a couple minutes it was squirting pretty hard. Had I not been so tired I would have realized a cold motor should not make pressure like that so soon. That's why I attribute the fault to be mine despite the seller letting the crawler go without saying anything. And later finding the notes on the head gasket change. That was kind of crummy but oh well. Look at all the diesel engine experience I am getting now. :)

The right one will show up. Post a pic when you get it.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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Tigerhaze
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Post by Tigerhaze » Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:16 pm

Willie B wrote: Zack loaded himself, when EMSHAW enforcement people showed themselves. He had no certificate of loader training, failed to use his seat belt in the loader, and failed to chock the loaders wheels on level ground.
MSHA usually makes OSHA look like mall cops. It sounds like they were giving that quarry operator an easy day.
(1) JD Straight 450 crawler dozer with manual outside blade; (2) JD 2010 diesel crawler loaders; (1) JD 2010 diesel dozer with hydraulic 6-way blade; (2) Model 50 backhoe attachments, misc. other construction equipment

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