JD 450C owner intro and frustrating head gasket problem

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oldmetalmender
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Post by oldmetalmender » Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:13 pm

Well after a lot of reading I broke down and bought 2 1000 watt Kats heaters for the crawler and backhoe. The Kats unit that failed I mentioned earlier was a magnetic one. Hopefully at a third the price and a lower wattage than the JD one I had bookmarked, these will be fine. These in tandem with the silicone stick on Proheat units will hopefully remove any cold start up issues. The backhoe oil is dirty and needs a change. I'll put in a lighter viscosity till spring. So my 450 has brand new clean and clear 15-40 WT oil in it from my recent head gasket work. It was 95 out when I finished the HG work. Do you guys think this will be OK to leave in if I run the oil pan heater and the coolant heater for a few hours before I start it in these cold temps? If the opinion is to change it I will. I am assuming it will be OK as long as I heat it first. The 450 coolant cast elbow going in the head needs to be drilled and tapped. Not a big deal just a little more work is all.
Amazon.com is my friend.... :lol:
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

oldmetalmender
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Post by oldmetalmender » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:06 pm

I was going to go into town tomorrow and get more appropriate engine oil to use since it is so cold here. I'll be fine with 10-30 and the oil pan and coolant heaters according to the manual.
But I have been have found a discrepancy on oil to use for the transmission and finals etc. In the Operators manual OP-T42662 it says use JD type 303 which I have been using to top off and correct oil levels after some work was done. In the Technical manual TM-1102 it says in the same section to use Hy-GARD trans and hydraulic oil J20A or J41C. I finally found in the previous owners receipts 10 gallons of Hy-GARD purchased in 2009.
Are these oils compatible? Do I need to flush it all out? Please forgive my ignorance. I had no experience with these machines till recently.

And after seeing that it had an engine done in 1984 again in 1986 and from the looks of it, it needs yet another one now. I am wondering if I bought a big 14,500 pound yellow lemon. There is 600 hours on this motor since the last rebuild. Plus all the head gasket work that was just done twice. There was a lot more repair work done that I have not mentioned. And it STILL has a problem. Is this normal for 450's? I'm starting to feel like I really screwed up on this purchase.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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jtrichard
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Post by jtrichard » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:37 pm

Hy-GARD is a better upgraded version of 303 you will be fine with some 303 in the trans if you want to use the latest/greatest then just buy Hy-GARD from here on out
2010 with 622 dozer with mod. 35 ripper and a 2010 with 622 dozer bought in 1969 and a 2010 loader with drott and mod. 36 ripper

Willie B
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Post by Willie B » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:01 am

I don't know if I'll be forgiven, but there was a great article in Red Power Magazine a while back about Hy-Tran fluid. They talk of the earliest formulations being plain old oil. As years passed, the additives have become very sophisticated. Hy Tran is ideal for wet brake systems preventing the noise mistaken for grinding gears, it holds any moisture in suspension where it will minimize the harm it does.

I use Case/IH Hy-Tran, I like the dealer. In VT John Deere dealers are far apart, and not very helpful. The dealer that handles a green tractor refuses to even sell fluid if it's painted yellow. I doubt there is much difference in JD oil and Case/IH.

I'm a believer in presuming the previous owner was less careful with oil than I am. I want good oil, and clean oil throuought.

Willie
An optimist is usually wrong, and doomed to disappointment. he is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, delighted to be wrong, and is well prepared.

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:25 am

Hi,

The subject of lubricants and what they are composed of and what they do and why would pretty much require its' own site. Or, at least its own forum.

That said, the hydraulic oils of today are only about half mineral oil base stocks. The other half are viscosity extenders, rust and oxidation inhibitors, anti-foam agents, particulate suspension agents, and those are just the main ones.

The history starts with the producing of base oils and then as time marched on, each additive in turn as the demands of the equipment changed. I have a fairly decent understanding of lubricants even though I am not a chemical engineer. The father of one of my long-time (20+ years) coworkers was vice president of R+D at Kendall, and then Quaker State. So, I wound up with a more than basic education of the whole world of lubricants. Mostly because it was fascinating to sit and listen.

The bottom line is that the lubricant refineries regularly take all the equipment maker specifications and then produce a few categories of lubricant which meets multiple standards. And, usually, the latest offerings also cover older specifications. In this case HyGard is newer but happily replaces Type 303.

Just be careful because there is a lighter variant of HyGard and it won't do to load the lighter one where the heavier one is called for. And, recently I saw a Bio HyGard is out, and I have not yet researched it.

Regardless of what equipment you have, there will be a manufacturer standard called out. And, all one need do is look at whatever brand of lubricant and see that standard called out on the label. Then, you know you are OK to go.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

oldmetalmender
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Post by oldmetalmender » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:40 pm

Thanks guys. I'll pick up some Hy-gard and use that from now on. I'll use up the rest of the 303 on the backhoe. I was hoping I had not made more work of it. It made sense that it was somewhat compatible. But I have learned that assuming things can cost a lot of money if done carelessly.
Odd that the manuals are conflicting. Thank you for the input.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

s281jim
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Post by s281jim » Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:01 pm

We (my family and everyone I know) have always ran 15-40 engine oil in our diesel farm tractors, road trucks, pickup trucks, and construction equipment regardless of temperatures. Never new it was 'dangerous' until a few days ago, in this thread.

As far as the multiple rebuilds, possibly the quality of the work was substandard, hence the 'warranty work' a few years after.

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:39 am

Hi,

As I said, these discussions probably need their own forum. ;)

All oils have a temperature where they need to be changed to a different grade. Both upper and lower. Used to be, in the days of single grade, one had to almost continually change it. From 40wt in the summer to 10wt in the winter, with 30wt and 20wt in between both spring and fall. Big PIA. Hence, the addition of viscosity extenders to make multi-grades.

So, what we need to know is the low temp point for 15w-40. Which is just South of 10 deg F on the chart. For 10w30 it is -20 deg F. Need to go lower? 0w-40 goes down to -40 for you. This is for JD Plus 50-II which is what they currently sell. This may not be the same for all brands out there, but probably close enough.

Oh, and just to be complete, the 10w-30 tops out at 104 deg and the 15w-40 at 122 deg.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

Willie B
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Location: Mount Tabor VT

Post by Willie B » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:09 am

We have a family of farmers that go back 6 generations in one place. They are intelligent people, and through careful management, have amassed serious wealth. I kid them that with so much antique equipment in use every day they could convert to an antique farm museum by adding the word to the sign beside the driveway. Dave Middleton did a coffee table book about them Quite A Sightly Place. The title comes from Joan, Roger's mother's remark when she arrived as a war bride from England. Roger, the present "old man" wasn't yet born when his grandfather went down to Crosby's and came back with a new 1939 Farmall M. My son recently bought a similar tractor, called Roger to ask what to use for gear oil. Roger's answer was "I don't know, whatever it came with. We've never changed it"

I believe luck for some people borders on miracle.

Willie
An optimist is usually wrong, and doomed to disappointment. he is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, delighted to be wrong, and is well prepared.

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:14 am

Hi,

Ugh. Lucky, indeed. The best way to keep any equipment operating is understanding the maintenance needs. Changing lubricants is the number one maintenance item.

All lubricants oxidize over time. Over the years, additives were added to slow the oxidation rate, but it still happens. Ever see exposed lubricants get all hard and/or sticky? Some of that is dirt, of course, but most of it is oxidation. The additives just put off the time it takes, but eventually you have to change it out.

Then, there is water, which enters in the form of vapor thru any vent and then condenses inside the housing. Again, additives help keep that in suspension, but eventually those additives saturate. And, you have to change it out.

The refineries color their lubricants to show when these changes occur. So, we all need to pay attention, or we will be paying larger sums of something else....

The easiest lubricant to show this is motor oil, of course. With the byproducts of combustion added into the mix of crap that gets into it, the detergent additives change color the quickest. When it looks dirty, it *is* dirty!

I raced with so many people who used synthetic oil in their engines. They actually believed the ads as to how super-long those oils can go. The key word there is *can*, not *will* go. Race engines are loose so they do not tighten up on hot summer days and nights near then end of a race. So, early on lots of combustion crap gets into the oil.

I would run a 50/50 conventional/synthetic oil and run practice and qualifying on one load, then change before the main race. I always got lots of advice to run better oil and not have to do that. But, I never suffered an engine failure during a race. Also, I ran wider clearances than they all did so I still had full power at the end, when they all were down on power due to being a little too tight. They'd be running 450 deg oil temp and I'd be at 325-350.

But my oil would dirty up and I would change it. Theirs did, too. But they did not change it and then wonder why they suffered an engine failure every 8-10 weeks. I didn't have one and could go all season before I had to rebuild.

Not that very many folks actually learned from my example.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

Willie B
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430 crawler
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: Mount Tabor VT

Post by Willie B » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:53 am

I've always believed that either oil is adequate early in its life. While mineral oil has shorter life, either variety contaminates at the same rate. I just gave away a Chevy pickup with 200,000 miles, engine function was fine. At 150000 an intake gasket failed, so we tore it down. inside the valve covers, oil was clean, and sludge free. The only theory I can offer is frequent oil changes.

Willie
An optimist is usually wrong, and doomed to disappointment. he is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, delighted to be wrong, and is well prepared.

oldmetalmender
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Post by oldmetalmender » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:11 pm

Well there is no such thing as a cheap race car either. :D
Stan your sig echo's in my mind a lot. How true.

Well I put 5W-30 in the back hoe today. It's only 32 but we typically get 10-20 below zero in late Jan and or Feb. I have decided to try and leave the 450 alone till spring. The oil in the 450 is 15W-40. And brand new and not a sign of contamination. And I won't start it unless it gets heated.
I only really need it to push back the snow on our long driveway when my neighbor can't plow it anymore. He is famous for going in the ditch and after some mild teasing he is staying well away from the edge. I have discovered hauling down the driveway on a quad with a plow angled pushes it back just about as well as anything. I get a face full of snow but I like a little fun I guess.
I am getting interested in tearing the 450 motor down and seeing why the head gasket is failing so fast. I am also confident the o_rings are bad on the liners. I did see evidence of coolant rusting around the groove on two rear liners. But having it that far apart, I think I will want to do an in frame kit. Would that not make sense? I know the only way to see what it needs is to take it apart. After fixing what ever issue is causing the cooling system pressure, the dozer will have an easy life in my home owner hands.
I'll continue to fix and adjust the little things. There are a few.

I should get my Proheat oil pan pads and the Kats coolant heaters in any day now. I just hope the Kats work fine after seeing the magnetic heater failure. The backhoe is a slam dunk. The dozer looks to be a bit more work to install them. Making stuff better is a good thing. :)
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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jtrichard
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Post by jtrichard » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:12 pm

I am also confident the o_rings are bad on the liners. I did see evidence of coolant rusting around the groove on two rear liners.
I believe the O-RINGS are only at the bottom of the sleeves and if bad would only let coolant into the oil pan and should have nothing to do with you head gasket problem........I would say you have a liner height issue
2010 with 622 dozer with mod. 35 ripper and a 2010 with 622 dozer bought in 1969 and a 2010 loader with drott and mod. 36 ripper

oldmetalmender
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Post by oldmetalmender » Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:34 pm

OK, that's good to know. I guess I missed that in looking at the exploded view in the manual. When the head comes off again I will check the height.
Thank you. That is helpful. :)
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

oldmetalmender
440 crawler
440 crawler
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:06 pm
Location: Idaho Panhandle

Post by oldmetalmender » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:27 pm

I ordered a precision straight edge and it's on the way. I have a neighbor who winters in FL and he is going to be a second set of eyes when I tear down the motor after his return. He has good experience with Diesel's.
I have the micrometers needed to do the rest. I am looking forward to it.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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