Reverser operation

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oldmetalmender
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Reverser operation

Post by oldmetalmender » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:24 pm

My crawler is a 450C. I have noticed when I use the reverser to shuttle the dozer that it has a pretty hard shift when it changes direction. It is bad enough to me that I just started using the clutch and went slower. When it reverses it jumps and it just seems pretty violent to me. Before I bought the crawler I saw somewhere (and I don't remember where I read it) that this caused a machined shoulder in the transmission case to shear that two bearings resided in. The guy posted pictures of the bad trans case and the sheared bore. Using the reverser you just move from high or low to reverse right? Is it supposed to almost bang and lurch backwards? Am I shifting to fast? I don't want to damage my machine.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

B Town
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Post by B Town » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:01 am

I have had a 450c track loader for about 15 years and have rebuilt a lot of it. Has this problem recently changed or has it been there since the beginning? How much experience have you had running a H-L-R trans?

If i run my machine above 2,000 Rpm, direction changes can be violent. To be easier on me and kinder to my machine i shift to neutral, come to a complete stop, and shift the shuttle into the new direction. I know there are others who do not stop in change of direction without reported problems. Like you i have heard of and saw pictures of broken trans pieces. I have found this makes me feel much better(physical and mentally). Most of my work is done with the engine <2,000 rpm, but i still find myself stopping. Best wishes, Bruce

oldmetalmender
440 crawler
440 crawler
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Location: Idaho Panhandle

Post by oldmetalmender » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:47 pm

I have had the 450 for exactly one year now this month. I would guess I have logged 25 hours on it. So you could say I put the A in amateur. I have to ask as this tractor stuff is new to me but I do enjoy what you can do with them. Our property is flat and full of clay. We have drainage issues with each thaw. After I did my head gasket I dug a small 60 foot long pond to give the water a place to go. The work would have costs a lot and I really enjoyed doing it myself. So I can see the value in having these units. I'll try shifting slower. The seller romped on it when I was looking and I thought the shifts were a bit rough. I will be kinder to this machine than some of the previous owners. Thanks for the words.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

Willie B
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Post by Willie B » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:02 pm

Friends used to sell me topsoil. It was load yourself. They had an old Ford A62 loader. On the dash was a warning sticker saying "DO NOT EXCEED HALF THROTTLE FOR THE FIRST 15 MINUTES" It didn't have enough power to fill the bucket with loose topsoil. Backing up required a vicious attack on the throttle, then it would not go forward again unless you shut it off. I asked one of the owners about it. He jumped on, and at full throttle, slammed the reverser in and out. It worked fine!. I could never treat a machine that way.

The 410 backhoe needed a half second to pressurize the hydraulic reverses. I liked it that way, very gentle.

Willie
An optimist is usually wrong, and doomed to disappointment. he is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, delighted to be wrong, and is well prepared.

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Lavoy
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Post by Lavoy » Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:48 pm

Shift speed should be adjustable, it is nothing you are doing wrong.
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Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
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B Town
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Post by B Town » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:09 am

Lavoy, Can you explain to me what you mean by shift speed can be adjusted, please.

My first reverser was the gear-drive type on a 2nd phase 420C. Of course, you had to come to a complete stop with this reverser or face the consequences!! This made me develop the habit of stopping with direction changes. The H-L-R trans was major improvement for me. Early on I thought i could change directions like the big boys. It did not take me long to fell like i was abusing my machine and soon went back to my old habits. I will get ribbed by my buddies/friends/by-standers. I let that roll of my shoulders pretty quickly as none of them are payong for my down time, breakdowns, repairs.

Has anybody tried to adapt a deccelerator to these same crawlers? Bruce

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NWJD fan
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Post by NWJD fan » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:20 pm

450C has a 2 stage clutch. Partial travel on the clutch pedal dumps drivetrain hydraulic pressure allowing low stress HLR shifting. Full pedal disconnects the engine clutch to change gears. I partial clutch when shifting HLR. Machine feels better doing this which makes me happy.

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Post by Lavoy » Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:03 pm

I could be wrong, but the speed that the crawler switches between clutch packs should be adjustable. Check your service manual to be sure.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
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oldmetalmender
440 crawler
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Post by oldmetalmender » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:40 pm

I'll check the manuals for that Lavoy. I have them in the house and have been doing a lot of reading at night when trying to wind down. I have also learned a lot in my short time here on this board. It makes me want to get into the motor and see what is amiss. For now I'll still use the clutch when reversing. I'll try a slower shift also. I'm hoping I don't need the machine any more for snow push back and I can tear into it soon. I see a lot that needs adjusting and fine tuning. I will make it happen soon enough. My backhoe was a non running disaster and now it is a great machine. At least I knew of it's problems when I bought it. This dozer just needs some TLC.
And an experienced operator... :D
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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DrLoch
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Post by DrLoch » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:16 pm

Lavoy wrote:I could be wrong, but the speed that the crawler switches between clutch packs should be adjustable. Check your service manual to be sure.
Lavoy
It is adjustable, getting to the plug and adjusting the needle valve is somewhat of a challenge but can and has been done. before doing that you want to make sure the clutch control valve is adjusted correctly. Then, move on to the needle valve. Myself, I feel better using the partial travel of the clutch pedal to control the shifts. As NWJD fan said, it makes me happy.
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Scottyb
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Post by Scottyb » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:27 pm

my 450c shifts just right at all rpms, no clutch required. I can't take credit for it as it has been adjusted correctly since I bought it. Just agreeing with the guys, it can be set correctly for no clutch shifting.
450`s c-dozer 6 way, b-loader.
350`s c-loader + ripper, b-loader with winch arch. B-loader with dozer pads
backhoe attachment.
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oldmetalmender
440 crawler
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Post by oldmetalmender » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:31 pm

Good to know. I am adding this to the repair or address and adjust list for this spring. This list keeps getting longer. :wink:

Thank you.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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tuney443
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Post by tuney443 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:53 pm

I have had numerous JD late model crawlers and TLB's with the hydraulic reverser.If everything is in correct order you most definitely don't use the clutch to change direction.Deere designed a great system here for quick movements by shuttling under full RPM. Never have I had any issues.Perfectly proper to only use the reverser.Save the clutch only for gear changes.
Found the skull to the mastodon in Hyde Park, youngest one ever found so far in the world in 2000.

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oldmetalmender
440 crawler
440 crawler
Posts: 248
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:06 pm
Location: Idaho Panhandle

Post by oldmetalmender » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:54 pm

There are few things that need adjusting on my 450. And from your guys input I can see this is definitely one of them. The brakes come in late, the steering clutches seem OK and in my notes from previous owners I see notes on adjusting the brakes and how one of the ratchet springs appears to be broken. Fortunately I have JD manuals. That is the first step of course. I just sold a big military truck for a great price. The funds are there for my Crawler now. Whoo hoo... :)
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

oldmetalmender
440 crawler
440 crawler
Posts: 248
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:06 pm
Location: Idaho Panhandle

Post by oldmetalmender » Sat Jan 16, 2016 12:57 pm

Well yesterday I needed to do some snow clean up. I definitely have a lot of things needing adjustment. The reverser bangs pretty hard at only 1800 RPM after a slow shift back. I read the manual in detail. I need to start with the engine clutch, the linkages, and then check pressures and timing. and finally the needle valve in the trans. I need a pressure gauge with a foot or so hydraulic lead for this work. I will pull the plug for a thread size. Anybody know off hand what size the thread is that I need to tap into for the H-L-R clutches?
Funny, I have to hook the H-L-R shifter with the inside of my left elbow
while pressing the start button to make the neutral safety switch , and giving a short spritz of starting fluid with my right hand. A contortionist act. It's time to fix this stuff. I am eager for a fine tuned machine.
Oil temp is important. I believe I may have to wait till the weather warms up some to do this work. I would like to do it soon doing all this reading on it. :)
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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