Advice wanted on purchase decision between JD 450 and 450 c.

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Idaho jarhead
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Advice wanted on purchase decision between JD 450 and 450 c.

Post by Idaho jarhead » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:01 pm

Howdy y'all, thanks for all the great info I've already gleaned from this site! I've been looking for something to replace my oliver/ cletrac hg 42 for a while now and came across a JD 450,1965 according to a post here. Its the size I've been looking for to pair up with my mid sized excavator and at the asking price of 9000 its in my budget. I'm located in north Idaho and anything here that runs and moves under its own power is 7000 minimum. The good points first, it has brand new track chain and pads and the sprockets and idlers are 95% upper and lower rollers also look good. It has 6 way with good cutting edge and winch with arch. Both are operational although wiggle stick has some slop in it. Its been pretty cold here teens at night and twenties during day, both times I've started machine cold it has needed a tiny shot of either. Not a 2-3 second blast, like the amount a ladies perfume bottle would dispense. The battery is a little weak which is why I only cranked for ten seconds before resorting to either just so I didn't kill the batteries after driving 1 1/2 hours to see it. Had throttle just above idle and once it starts it idles nice, no racing the engine for a minute or anything needed. I ran thru all 4 gEars in all HLR ranges at a little over an idle and all seemed fine. Both steering levers had 1" free travel and required only 5-8 pounds to disengage clutch and turn. Winch freespools easily and will pull my dodge diesel with parking brake applied, nothing else handy to pull on. I didn't really get to stress the steering clutches much on a steep hill or pushing against a tree, as only ones handy are in the yard and didn't think it would be good for negotiations if I flattened his landscaping. The flywheel clutch seems to engage kinda high, but from what I've read here the bottom travel works flywheel clutch and then machine still will not move until the valve to send hydraulic pressure to HLR unit is moved at the top of clutch travel since to shift HLR only the clutch is only partially depressed. I have read about 3 3/4" of free travel being correct for this machine, bit not sure if its from bottom until HLR engagement or from top to flywheel clutch disengagement? I assume I could carefully watch for PTO to winch to stop turning to tell when flywheel disengages? The negatives I have seen are a little blowby exaust visible at top of engine, 50 years of metal fatigue, the other machine is 12 years newer, failure so far to start without either, and basically unknown condition of steering clutches. Is there a way to measure what kind of life is left in them or just figure the UC is new so the clutches must be pretty worn. Im putting off getting a manual until I decide on which machine, anyone know what's involved in replacing clutches. The ground is froze hard as a rock so I can't just bury the blade and put a good load on them. Any input would be greatly appreciated. I've been operating and wrenching on farming, logging and construction equipment on and off, mostly on, for about 30 years so I'm pretty confident with doing work myself. I called a friend to pick his brain on this one and he mentioned the tranny cracking issue and then said I should take a look at a nice one his friend wants to sell. Normally that would make my radar twitch, but he has helped me multiple times with hard to find parts for my excavator etc. And has never steered me wrong yet. This second machine is a 76 or 77 450c l, so for starters it has 72 as opposed to 57 hp. It started right up although I didn't get to feel block or oil to make sure it was cold when I arrived because of extra brush guarding. The UC on this one is I guess about 60%. The sprockets and idlers show some wear the grousers are half worn down and it feels like the bushings have been turned, I don't have a lot of experience judging this so any input here would be great. If I'm in the woods skidding and not pushing dirt so much, and not pulling heavy turns riding around on the sprockets, does anyone have a ballpark idea of hours that might be left on the UC? 2000-3000? The owner said the whole UC is 550, his tranny case cracked and he got a parts machine and put the UC under it and said he rebuilt the tranny and steering clutches. No receipts for parts so maybe he did and maybe he just put a working tranny in the thing. I was thinking of calling the Deere dealer he uses and see if they could tell me if and what parts were purchased for that serial #? The winch on this one is strong and spools easily the owner had some grinding trouble when first putting 1-4 gearbox in gear, don't know if that could be from sitting the last 5years? Don't seem likely to me but that was the explanation. Once in gear drove nice HLR shifted fine. The steering levers had a lot of travel, but once resistance was encountered it took same 5-8 pounds of pressure to get it to turn. I got to run this one up a couple short steep hills,but its 16" of snow so tracks spun some and didn't strain steering clutches much. The blade on this one has a lot of play and definitely needs new wear plates welded on, but I can't tell if center pin or bosses are sloppy also. This machine has same slop in wiggle stick for 6 way. Down side to this one is $ 12500 price tag, more wear on UC, its twice as far away to move home. I hire all my moving out as I have enough to turn wrenches on and can only justify something else if it has a decent fun factor as well as ability to pay bills, a truck and trailer is zero fun and would just sit too much of the time. I reckon I can get both to wiggle on price some. Basically I see one that needs power plant work and probably clutches before too long and one that is weaker in the UC dept. And may or may not have rebuilt tranny and clutches, to me that's a big gamble for 3500 in price diff. Its never humid here just damp a few months spring and fall, so the dry clutches I'm thinking won't be the issue they are back in Appalachia. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. If you've managed to read all this thanks you're a better man than me. Any and all input will be appreciated. Thanks again.

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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:08 am

Based on what you've posted, you already know which machine is better for you. Your mechanical skills will serve you well. One needs more of your TLC than the other, so it comes down to how much more time effort and money do you expect either will require from you. Good luck with your choice.
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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:36 am

Hi,

If it were me, I would go with the 450 and not worry about dry steering clutches or a little lower HP.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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77 Ford
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Post by 77 Ford » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:10 am

12 years newer, wet clutches, and more HP I would go with the 450C. It could have a failing main clutch, that sometimes makes it hard to change gears and then it works great in HLR section. I looked at a machine once that it had to be turned off to switch between 1-2-3-4...

Just my opinion though.
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Serial #208336T

B Town
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Post by B Town » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:13 am

If they were similar in condition it would be a no-brainer. But it sounds like the 450 is in better shape than the 450C. If you can store inside, want something to use now, and dont mind occasional dry clutch adjusments go with the 450. If you want a project to work on a slowly and improve the 450c has great potential. Bruce

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Idaho jarhead
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Many thanks

Post by Idaho jarhead » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:08 am

Thanks for the input, I do usually like the idea of spending less and fixing myself so I know what I have. My biggest concern with the 450 is the either, I've been around equipment that always needs it and there's nothing more frustrating than trying to get something done and the machine don't start. Any ideas on weather this might be worse in summer? I'm thinking cold oil, its still pretty cold here, = better compression. I don't think I ran the machine hard enough to thin it out much. Anyone have basic overview of dry clutch adjustment? I wouldn't mind keeping up with it if it's not too involved. The 450 also has an unidentified leak dripping from bellypan. Sorry, this should have made the first post. Its clear, so can't tell if it's hydraulic or tranny fluid also pretty much odorless. Hydraulic sight glass is crudded up , so can't tell anything there. And both the seat and cover on left side are frozen shut so I can't access to check fluid levels. I'll make sure to get in them today and check. Anyone have advice on adjusting the free travel out of the steering levers on the 450 c, it seems to disengage clutch easily but its almost touching seat by then? I looked under the seat and the brake band linkage has obvious adjustment, but the hydraulic doesn't have any that I see. Thanks again for all your time and expertise.

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jtrichard
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Post by jtrichard » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:09 pm

Welcome Jarhead I take it you are USMC spend any time in 29 stumps CA?
2010 with 622 dozer with mod. 35 ripper and a 2010 with 622 dozer bought in 1969 and a 2010 loader with drott and mod. 36 ripper

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Idaho jarhead
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Advice wanted on purchase decision between JD 450 and 450 c.

Post by Idaho jarhead » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:44 am

That's correct, 29 stumps desert paradise my most favoritest place, home of the desert tortise and the jumping jacinto cactus try not to blow them up please. It thawed out enough today to get the seat off the 450 and check the tranny fluid, its cream colored which I'm guessing is water. The tranny fluid in the 450 c is clear like all hydraulic tranny fluid I'm familiar with. I used a spud bar to break off frozen .ud und got a good look at tranny and frame from underneath and all bolts are present and tight and no cracks in tranny. Anyone know how much water it would take to turn fluid milky? I found the source of the drip from skid plate, its the hyd line feeding the 6 way valve so no big worry there. Have a few more new observations, but these are the major ones. Thanks for any opinions on any of this.

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Post by s281jim » Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:41 am

I'd do some more shopping. At least for cost comparison reasons. Also, do you want/need the winch? It could easily be peddled for a couple grand.

I personally wouldn't buy a dry clutch machine, not when there's so many wet clutches out there. But finding a machine with 95% undercarriage for 9k is rare.

How many hours a year do you plan on using it?

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Idaho jarhead
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450 c steering clutch adjust?

Post by Idaho jarhead » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:30 am

Thanks for the response. I would guess about 700 hrs a year I would like to put more but since this is a new type of equipment I can only guess based on how many times in the past I said to myself a logging equipped dozer is really what I need for this. Can't do without the winch as skidding will be 70% of its duties. I would like to do some more shopping, but around here there is only maybe one a year I see for sale and almost never with winch. expanding my search past 200 miles or so is problematic because I won't buy anything I haven't operated and paying several thousand to transport is a hurdle I don't think I could get over.I'm still looking for any input on hours left in a 60% UC if there's 2-3000 that's not a problem for me. Thanks again for the help.

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NWJD fan
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Post by NWJD fan » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:31 am

If you are actually going to use it around 700 hours per year logging you should be prepared to do a lot of fixing on a machine that old. If you are aiming for any kind of production you might be better served by something newer.

s281jim
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Post by s281jim » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:49 am

I am new to the dozer game, I just bought a 450E in early December. When I was sniffing around asking about hours per undercarriage % on here, I was generally told 4000 hours on 100% undercarriage. I believe driving habits, soil and type of work greatly effect that though.

I'm in central Pennsylvania, and was lucky enough that a "new" 450 popped up on craigslist every week, so I got a good feel for the market. I ended up looking at 3 dozers, and got the best one for the lowest price, only because some people were asking what they had into them instead of what they were worth. It was really a no-brainer decision.

You know your area better than I do, me personally I would keep looking until that "no-brainer" situation presented itself to you, unless you need one NOW. In that case, if the dry clutches don't concern you, buy the straight 450.

I re-read your original post, just to clarify, a 550 transmission does not go into a 450, if that's what he's telling you.

Your prices/condition seem similar to what things are going for around here so I will elaborate what I got.

1986 450E, 4300 hours which I believe because the service intervals are written on the underside of the lid in marker with dates, and the "petina" is correct. Straight sheet metal, 276 turbo, tight reverser, 6 way blade with average slop, 95% undercarriage except for grousers, they are only 1" tall. Not sure what "new" is, but I've seen them over 1-1/2". No Winch. I paid $13,270 out the door, and paid $220 to get it delivered 60-70 miles. A working winch adds $2000 around here.

It was the perfect scenario for me, because I plan to use it 100-200 hours a year, and I'm 35 so the undercarraige should last me forever.

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Idaho jarhead
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Thanks NW JD fan

Post by Idaho jarhead » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:40 pm

Thanks for your guidance. I've spent a lot of time working in the woods and as a climber, but I'm pretty green in the sending wood to the mill end of things. I came up with 700 figuring on logging 50-60 acres with a basal density yielding 2500- 3000 bft per acre. I'm a one man operation and try to take it a little easy on my equipment since I don't need max production to make payroll and pay notes on my equipment. I buy older serviceable equipment for cash and turn my own wrenches and its worked well enough for the last 15 years. I'm also figuring half that time will be dead heading with no load and setting chokers myself, so its low wear for half the hours its running. Feel free to let me know if I'm way off the mark in my estimations. Normally I pioneer a road in and clear a home site with my excavator and maybe do the septic for new property owners on 10-40 acre sites. I've always passed on offers to do a little logging because any amount of timbre that's worth messing with is too much to do efficiently with just my excavator. Thanks again for the input.[/list]

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NWJD fan
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Post by NWJD fan » Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:53 pm

How far do you expect to move your wood? If you are doing longer skids and terrain is not real tough have you considered a skidder?

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Idaho jarhead
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Thanks NW JD fan

Post by Idaho jarhead » Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:21 pm

Thanks again for responding. The two jobs I could start on if I get the machine I can keep the decking area pretty centrally located or have two decks so 5- 700' max which I'm guessing is about where a dozer starts losing badly to a skidder. I'm sure some will end up longer and some shorter, I'm hoping if I can keep 85% in the 5-700' and under category the dozer will not be too inefficient? I have looked at skidders I just like the dual purpose of the dozer I'd probably try either one, I'm just trying to find a way to spend more of my time in the woods. Right now is when I have some money to spend and I've found two dozers so that's where my mind is. I'd be glad to hear if you think I'm in the ballpark with this or not, thanks.
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