JD 350 B dozer will not go into gear.. Reverser problem?
JD 350 B dozer will not go into gear.. Reverser problem?
I have a 1971 JD350B that hasn't been started in years. I got it started by replacing the injection pump. It starts up fine now and I pulled it out of my garage. It took it for a drive and the steering didn't seem to good. Very hard to steer left. While I was stopped and had it idling , it started to take off on me and I couldn't control it when I step on the clutch. Very scarey! I shut it off. With the engine off it will go into any gear but when the engine is running, it will not go into gear. It grinds as if I am not stepping on the clutch. From what I read, my dozer does not have a clutch system because it has a hydraulic system called a reverser that acts as the clutch. I am not sure what to look for to diagnose this problem. Could it be a bad valve or something or bad seals cause it was sitting so long unused? The dozer will start but now I can't move it cause I can't get it into gear. Please help!
-
Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2901
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
They are hydraulically operated clutch packs which run in oil.
Sounds like water got into the reverser oil. If enough gets in, it will mess up the clutches, oil floating on top of water. If so, by now that oil ought to be milky from mixing while running. Easy enough to see now....
But, yes, something not right in there keeping the clutches engaged.
Stan
They are hydraulically operated clutch packs which run in oil.
Sounds like water got into the reverser oil. If enough gets in, it will mess up the clutches, oil floating on top of water. If so, by now that oil ought to be milky from mixing while running. Easy enough to see now....
But, yes, something not right in there keeping the clutches engaged.
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
-
original possum
- 1010 crawler
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:34 pm
- Location: Shiner, texas
Don't worry about the drain plug. When you remove the filter EVERYTHING will flow out. It is held in by the four evenly spaced (in a square) bolts on the right side of the reverser. By all means change the fluid and filter. You can mop out any crud by sticking your hand through the filter hole (after filter is removed).after refilling start it in neutral and cycle the reverser forward and reverse. It should not load the engine in either direction, but suspect it will . Whichever side loads the engine, leave it there and let it run. If the engine unloads as the reverser gets warm then you have warped or "sticky" plates. You need pressure to engage, not disengage.
Early 40C w/Yakima toolbar and homebuilt ripper: 350 w/6-way
Ok thanks. When you say filter is on right side, do you mean sitting on the machine my right side? Also just to be sure I check the fluid while the engine is running right? I'm also not really sure what you mean by load the engine? Sorry I'm just new to all this.original possum wrote:Don't worry about the drain plug. When you remove the filter EVERYTHING will flow out. It is held in by the four evenly spaced (in a square) bolts on the right side of the reverser. By all means change the fluid and filter. You can mop out any crud by sticking your hand through the filter hole (after filter is removed).after refilling start it in neutral and cycle the reverser forward and reverse. It should not load the engine in either direction, but suspect it will . Whichever side loads the engine, leave it there and let it run. If the engine unloads as the reverser gets warm then you have warped or "sticky" plates. You need pressure to engage, not disengage.
-
Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2901
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
Left and right mean from the operating position.
Loading means just that, the engine drops RPM and picks it up. You will hear that plain enough as the sound changes.
You say you are new to 'all this'. Does that mean crawlers or machinery in general. There are things we are likely to presume from tractors which we will leave out unless we know to mention them.,
Things like governors, for example. All machinery has them. All cars and trucks do not. So, I am presuming you understand how a governor works in my previous statement on engine loading.
The way your machine works is the engine drives the reverser directly. No engine clutch. Inside the reverser is an oil pump that valves control to engage the forward or reverse drive clutch packs inside the reverser.
There is a neutral position where the oil pressure is dumped back to sump and neither clutch pack is engaged. The 'clutch pedal' opens such a valve to disengage whichever clutch pack is being operated. This, independent of the position of the reverser lever.
The output of the reverser goes into the gear transmission, which also has a neutral position. These are distinctly different neutrals.
What you want to do, is put the trans in neutral so you don't move the machine, then with the clutch pedal up, work the reverser lever from its neutral to forward, then back to neutral, then into reverse. Listen for the sound change in the engine as the reverser clutch packs are pressurized and so engage power to the output side.
Just by that, there will be a drag on the engine and you ought to be able to tell that they are engaging. Also, with the new fluid in place, there ought to be a cleaning action on the parts of the reverser clutch packs. That might just do the trick, cleaning the 'slimyness' off them from the old oil.
Let the running in trans neutral go on for a while. The oil flow inside the reverser will heat the oil. If the clutch packs unload the engine when the oil is warm, you have some reverser issues which means pulling the reverser.
And, that means starting at the nose and removing everything until you have the reverser out.
Stan
Left and right mean from the operating position.
Loading means just that, the engine drops RPM and picks it up. You will hear that plain enough as the sound changes.
You say you are new to 'all this'. Does that mean crawlers or machinery in general. There are things we are likely to presume from tractors which we will leave out unless we know to mention them.,
Things like governors, for example. All machinery has them. All cars and trucks do not. So, I am presuming you understand how a governor works in my previous statement on engine loading.
The way your machine works is the engine drives the reverser directly. No engine clutch. Inside the reverser is an oil pump that valves control to engage the forward or reverse drive clutch packs inside the reverser.
There is a neutral position where the oil pressure is dumped back to sump and neither clutch pack is engaged. The 'clutch pedal' opens such a valve to disengage whichever clutch pack is being operated. This, independent of the position of the reverser lever.
The output of the reverser goes into the gear transmission, which also has a neutral position. These are distinctly different neutrals.
What you want to do, is put the trans in neutral so you don't move the machine, then with the clutch pedal up, work the reverser lever from its neutral to forward, then back to neutral, then into reverse. Listen for the sound change in the engine as the reverser clutch packs are pressurized and so engage power to the output side.
Just by that, there will be a drag on the engine and you ought to be able to tell that they are engaging. Also, with the new fluid in place, there ought to be a cleaning action on the parts of the reverser clutch packs. That might just do the trick, cleaning the 'slimyness' off them from the old oil.
Let the running in trans neutral go on for a while. The oil flow inside the reverser will heat the oil. If the clutch packs unload the engine when the oil is warm, you have some reverser issues which means pulling the reverser.
And, that means starting at the nose and removing everything until you have the reverser out.
Stan
Last edited by Stan Disbrow on Tue May 24, 2016 5:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
-
Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2901
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
One other point. There are two clutch packs in the reverser. Only one should be engaged at a time.
The forward pack spins the output shaft forward. The reverse pack spins a countershaft, which in turn spins the output shaft backwards.
If a clutch pack is dragging due to contamination, and this is likely to be a film of rust if there was water in the old oil, then there will be a fighting between the two packs. That will really load the engine, and is what Original Possum is suspecting.
If you leave it in the reverser position where it is fighting itself, that will help clean the contamination off the plates of the pack and dump the crud into that new filter.
The trick just might save you tearing the machine apart.
Oh, and if it works, you need go buy another new filter and load of oil. But, that is a lot easier and cheaper than tearing it down and rebuilding it!
Stan
One other point. There are two clutch packs in the reverser. Only one should be engaged at a time.
The forward pack spins the output shaft forward. The reverse pack spins a countershaft, which in turn spins the output shaft backwards.
If a clutch pack is dragging due to contamination, and this is likely to be a film of rust if there was water in the old oil, then there will be a fighting between the two packs. That will really load the engine, and is what Original Possum is suspecting.
If you leave it in the reverser position where it is fighting itself, that will help clean the contamination off the plates of the pack and dump the crud into that new filter.
The trick just might save you tearing the machine apart.
Oh, and if it works, you need go buy another new filter and load of oil. But, that is a lot easier and cheaper than tearing it down and rebuilding it!
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
OK Thanks! Im gonna give it a try this weekend. Another thing I forgot to mention. When I got it started last weekend, After sitting for years, i drove it out of my garage fine. Went into gear no problem. As I was running it in front of my garage, it acted up and the problem happened. Couldnt get it in gear! After about an hour, it started to work fine again. Took it for a ride in the field. Felt ok but the left side steering wasnt great. That side did need grease for the track adjustment cause that side was loose (if that makes any difference). Brought it back by the garage, shut it down. Started it up and the problem happened again. Just wanted to let you know that it seemed to an intimittent problem at first.
-
Stan Disbrow
- 350 crawler
- Posts: 2901
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hi,
Keep in mind that the two clutch packs in the reverser are not the same as the clutch packs which allow steering.
The steering clutches are inside the final drive housings.
Unlike a tractor (or car or truck for that matter) crawlers have no differential. Just a ring and pinion gear aft of the transmission. Both left and right side shafts run at the same speed, and together.
To steer, there is another clutch pack on each side. Normally, they are engaged and power passes thru to the sprockets. When you pull a stick, the clutch pack disengages and *then* a brake band is applied to the outside of the drum where the clutch pack is inside of.
Lack of steering issues can be a lack of proper release of the clutch pack or a lack of proper engagement of the brake band, or both.
Lack of drive issues can be a slipping clutch pack or a dragging brake band, or both.
Each side has its own set of steering parts, so sometimes only one side has an issue.
The adjustment procedure is complicated and requires a service manual to get it correct.
Stan
Keep in mind that the two clutch packs in the reverser are not the same as the clutch packs which allow steering.
The steering clutches are inside the final drive housings.
Unlike a tractor (or car or truck for that matter) crawlers have no differential. Just a ring and pinion gear aft of the transmission. Both left and right side shafts run at the same speed, and together.
To steer, there is another clutch pack on each side. Normally, they are engaged and power passes thru to the sprockets. When you pull a stick, the clutch pack disengages and *then* a brake band is applied to the outside of the drum where the clutch pack is inside of.
Lack of steering issues can be a lack of proper release of the clutch pack or a lack of proper engagement of the brake band, or both.
Lack of drive issues can be a slipping clutch pack or a dragging brake band, or both.
Each side has its own set of steering parts, so sometimes only one side has an issue.
The adjustment procedure is complicated and requires a service manual to get it correct.
Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)
350b trans issues
Nice explanation, Stan. I learned some things from it too. I have a 350B and have had issue with the reverser and steering clutches. Mostly worked out now. You forgot to mention he needs to drop the belly pan to get to the reverser filter. You maybe could do it topside under floor pan, but that would be a real messy pain. My gears always grind a little bit when engaging the trans in any position. I just idle down the engine, shift reverser to neutral and hold clutch in for awhile. No need to shift it often anyway if you have the reverser. On the subject of checking reverser oil level - engine running or not? I always check mine with engine stopped? I have operators manual and maintenance manual, but neither tells you. Operator manual is especially useless - mostly common sense safety and how to bulldoze stuff. Always wear safety goggles?! Give me a break! Did John Deere make a useful operator manual? maybe I got a knockoff.
JD 350B, IH 500E
Ok so I change the reverser filter and oil today. Problem is still there. With the gear box in neutral and rpm around 1500. I shift the reverser into reverse and the engine will load up and will stall unless I step on the clutch. If I shift the reverser forward, it will not load up and actually I can hear something going on under my feet in the reverser. Almost like a clacking noise but the engine will not load up in forward. Not sure where to go from here?
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 42 guests