Here's the problem: on my 350C oil from reverser was transferring to transmission. Open and inspect and steering clutch piston seals intact, pressure and return lines for same intact. Drained transmission and clutch housings and finals(finals have common sump with transmission on this unit). Filled reverser and with unit in neutral placed reverser in forward then reverse to pressurize clutch directional valves.
Oil is leaving reverser rear seal and traversing into transmission via it's front seal. Small(very small) leak at case joint for reverser to transmission.
Correct fix is disassembly of front of dozer to get to and remove reverser for seal replacement(100+ hour job).
"Farmer fix" was a return line from lower clutch housing drain to reverser drain. Seems to be working.
Has anyone else done this type of fix?
Obviously oils for finals,transmission,clutch housing and reverser are all the same(JD Hygard) and seal leakage rate has to be low enough to not overwhelm gravity fed equalizing line(.5" I.D.hose)
JD 350C reverser seal issue
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cantbeatadeere
- 440 crawler
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:30 pm
- Location: new york..upstate..
From my experience, the reverser oil cannot transfer into the transmission. from an oil standpoint they are completely separate. I understand what your thinking but it is simply not the case. now, if your transmission is getting fuller while running you have a seal bad in one of your steering clutches.....as with the reverser the transmission is also completely separate as far as the oil is concerned.
......now as far as your small leak at the case joint there is a weep hole in the bottom of the reverser to eng. housing which should have a small eyelet shaped head of a cotter pin hanging down, take a pick and open up the hole from debris ---there is also the same situation at the trans to reverser joint, clean that out aswell. you have two separate problems in my opinion, a front trans seal leak--or--a rear reverser seal leak which is your internal leak........and a steering seal leak which is your oil transferring issue....
......now as far as your small leak at the case joint there is a weep hole in the bottom of the reverser to eng. housing which should have a small eyelet shaped head of a cotter pin hanging down, take a pick and open up the hole from debris ---there is also the same situation at the trans to reverser joint, clean that out aswell. you have two separate problems in my opinion, a front trans seal leak--or--a rear reverser seal leak which is your internal leak........and a steering seal leak which is your oil transferring issue....
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CuttingEdge
- 2010 crawler
- Posts: 534
- Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:13 pm
- Location: Maine
I don't believe that is the case. I know on my 1988 John Deere 350D, the transmission and steering clutches share a common sump...and thus the same oil.
But I am not as knowledgeable as some of the mechanics on here. I just wanted to ensure my clutches had the right oil level and hunted and hunted on how to check their fluid capacity. After awhile I realized some of the late model John Deere 350's like mine had a common sump.
As for the suggested fix, I hope it works for you, but cannot say as my work-around intellect is limited on these machines.
But I am not as knowledgeable as some of the mechanics on here. I just wanted to ensure my clutches had the right oil level and hunted and hunted on how to check their fluid capacity. After awhile I realized some of the late model John Deere 350's like mine had a common sump.
As for the suggested fix, I hope it works for you, but cannot say as my work-around intellect is limited on these machines.
I have no intention of traveling to my grave in a well manicured body; instead I am going to slide into heaven with a big power turn, totally wore out with busted knuckles, jump off my dozer loudly yelling, Woo Hoo, another Shepard has just arrived!
As had been stated, if your output seal of the reverser is leaking it should show up in the hole/cotter pin beneath the joint between the reverser and transmission. The transmission has an input shaft seal, so it would have to push past that to enter at that point. It sounds like you've already found a leak there, so either your output shaft seal is leaking or one of the quills o-rings is leaking.
As far as transferring oil, in a nutshell the reverser supplies oil for the clutch packs, which sit inside the steering clutch housings, which share oil with the transmission and final drives. If there is a leak at any point from the control valve to the clutch pack, it will add oil to the transmission and loose oil from the reverser. The best way to check for leaks is detailed in the service manual. It checks the entire system for leaks using shop air applied at the pressure port in the steering clutch valves. It also has a pressure regulator, shut off valve and gauge, you add air, shut off the valve and wait for a minute or so and watch the gauge to see if it looses pressure. There are tubes with o-rings and quills with metal sealing rings that would be difficult to check visually with just the cover off.
As far as transferring oil, in a nutshell the reverser supplies oil for the clutch packs, which sit inside the steering clutch housings, which share oil with the transmission and final drives. If there is a leak at any point from the control valve to the clutch pack, it will add oil to the transmission and loose oil from the reverser. The best way to check for leaks is detailed in the service manual. It checks the entire system for leaks using shop air applied at the pressure port in the steering clutch valves. It also has a pressure regulator, shut off valve and gauge, you add air, shut off the valve and wait for a minute or so and watch the gauge to see if it looses pressure. There are tubes with o-rings and quills with metal sealing rings that would be difficult to check visually with just the cover off.
some good points but..
When I had the steering clutch housings,finals and transmission drained and with the reverser filled and in operation I could see no oil bypassing steering clutches. Oil flow(gain) into steering clutch housing was from center line of the transmission out toward steering clutch housing.
Doggett Machinery is the sales/repair facility in my area for JD construction equipment and service manager and I reviewed prints and after some head scratching found the leaking rear reverser seal to front transmission seal the only plausible explanation based on what was seen.
Weep hole is on bottom of engine clutch housing;no weep holes on reverser case.
That there is a slight drip at reverser case to transmission case indicates oil in that area between the cases which again may strengthen suspected leaking rear seal on reverser .
Only way to know for sure is major tear down of unit to get to rear of reverser(unless someone knows a way that doesn't involve removal of everything from front to back?)
A quick 1 hour test run pushing gravel at 1500 rpm indicated the equalizing line I installed did result in oil level in reverser remaining constant.
Original question was if anyone had done a similar mod and did it last.
Doggett Machinery is the sales/repair facility in my area for JD construction equipment and service manager and I reviewed prints and after some head scratching found the leaking rear reverser seal to front transmission seal the only plausible explanation based on what was seen.
Weep hole is on bottom of engine clutch housing;no weep holes on reverser case.
That there is a slight drip at reverser case to transmission case indicates oil in that area between the cases which again may strengthen suspected leaking rear seal on reverser .
Only way to know for sure is major tear down of unit to get to rear of reverser(unless someone knows a way that doesn't involve removal of everything from front to back?)
A quick 1 hour test run pushing gravel at 1500 rpm indicated the equalizing line I installed did result in oil level in reverser remaining constant.
Original question was if anyone had done a similar mod and did it last.
@CATD8RII
End of your post you suggest checking steering clutch valves. It could be just that simple and I'll pull them down and check. Thanks!
Reason I didn't look toward those is dozer turns on a dime and will do so at idle which to me indicates good steering "lock up" pressure going back to supply pressure for clutches via valve block.
I use a remote camera to look deep into problem areas and with that I can see steering clutches from top to bottom pretty clearly. Good tool and fairly cheap now.
Reason I didn't look toward those is dozer turns on a dime and will do so at idle which to me indicates good steering "lock up" pressure going back to supply pressure for clutches via valve block.
I use a remote camera to look deep into problem areas and with that I can see steering clutches from top to bottom pretty clearly. Good tool and fairly cheap now.
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cantbeatadeere
- 440 crawler
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:30 pm
- Location: new york..upstate..
Hmm....your "farmer" fix may work as long as both share a common fill height. There is however a weep hole so that oil can't fill the cavity between the eng. and reverser, and a second weep hole for the same reason where the reverser and transmission mate. as far as what hyguard is shared, the transmission and finals share the same unfiltered oil (that's why they share the same dipstick) - the reverser has its own hyd. pump & filter and does not share any oil (has it's own dipstick) - the main hydraulics which is ran by the pump on the front of the engine is also filtered and not shared (sight glass for fluid level). as catd8 said there would have to be a leaking seal or o-ring for the transfer of oil. ----- just remember you may be opening up a bigger can of worms when you start sharing unfiltered (transmission) oil to filtered (reverser)oil.
Tthe seal leaking might be just an old seal, or the output shaft bearing may be moving too much for the seal to compensate. And you're spot on about how to get to it, no easy way other then diving in deep.
The rear of the reverser housing should have a weep hole almost identical to the one in the engine bellhousing, stranger things have happened so maybe your machine doesn't have one
There is one other odd area that a transfer could occur (Thanks to LeonardL for pointing it out). Where the steering control valve bolts to the top of the transmission case there are o-rings sealing the valve to the case, between these the top of the case has an opening where the top of the ring gear protrudes. If the o-rings are leaking on the inside, the oil may travel into that opening rather than leaking externally.
The rear of the reverser housing should have a weep hole almost identical to the one in the engine bellhousing, stranger things have happened so maybe your machine doesn't have one
There is one other odd area that a transfer could occur (Thanks to LeonardL for pointing it out). Where the steering control valve bolts to the top of the transmission case there are o-rings sealing the valve to the case, between these the top of the case has an opening where the top of the ring gear protrudes. If the o-rings are leaking on the inside, the oil may travel into that opening rather than leaking externally.
350c tranny
I agree full heartedly with what Deere,D8 and cutting edge has told you...
there is no way on earth that the reverser can leak past its rear seal fill up the huge space between the tranny and reverser and then push past the input seal into the tranny,,,
for one thing the oil sloshing around the reverser is not all pressurized,, only in the regulator circuit to the clutches and the lines to your steering valve and to the oil cooler,, the rest is gravity sloshing around the bearings and such..
I believe D8 hit upon the valve leaking by and falling straight into the tranny.. if not it is definitely the steering circuit... you cannot see those O-rings and seals inside the steering drum.. but with air you might hear it leaking.. start with the valve it is easiest to work on if that tests ok just keep following the circuit all the way to the steering clutch pak.. it is somewhere right there..
that is the only pressurized connection between the tranny and reverser.
good luck... Mark,, and p.s. there is a drain hole in between the tranny and reverser but they tend to get greased up over time and quit draining the case,, but it is there
there is no way on earth that the reverser can leak past its rear seal fill up the huge space between the tranny and reverser and then push past the input seal into the tranny,,,
for one thing the oil sloshing around the reverser is not all pressurized,, only in the regulator circuit to the clutches and the lines to your steering valve and to the oil cooler,, the rest is gravity sloshing around the bearings and such..
I believe D8 hit upon the valve leaking by and falling straight into the tranny.. if not it is definitely the steering circuit... you cannot see those O-rings and seals inside the steering drum.. but with air you might hear it leaking.. start with the valve it is easiest to work on if that tests ok just keep following the circuit all the way to the steering clutch pak.. it is somewhere right there..
that is the only pressurized connection between the tranny and reverser.
good luck... Mark,, and p.s. there is a drain hole in between the tranny and reverser but they tend to get greased up over time and quit draining the case,, but it is there
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MANY Thanks!
More good posts from some knowledgeable people. Thank you for the input.Just got another clearing job(20 acres medium/heavy brush to 8" pine and a little hardwood) and after checking steering valves and upper seals this 350C will be the primary dozer on the job so it will get a good test.
Thanks again!
Amos
Thanks again!
Amos
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