new owner with basic questions

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JWedd
40C crawler
40C crawler
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Location: Fresno, CA

new owner with basic questions

Post by JWedd » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:34 pm

Hello, and thanks for this forum and its members! I've spend several hours reading enough to know that the 450C is a great machine...

Mine is a '79 loader with backhoe and MP bucket...very solid machine, starts on a dime, seems well taken care of. Big pile of records and receipts. Recent UC...

My neighbor has been the first to use it...pushing and consolidating his tree burn piles...and loves it.

He made a couple comments. He said he had to shift the 4 speed into a gear with the engine off, otherwise it would grind (foot all the way down on the cluctch, HLR in neutral). The operator's manual says the 4 speed should be switched at low engine speed, HLR in gear, clutch all the way depressed, and foot on the brake.

Will the 4 speed grind, if the clutch is fully depressed and HLR is in neutral (not in gear)?

My 4 speed shifter slot has the safety recall "grind" in the 3rd gear area. I read a few posts about a "neutral" position on the 4 speed, but I see no reference to this anywhere in the manual. Is there an intended neutral position for the 4 speed?

His other comment, he made sure to fill the tank after every day of work, as he thought if he ran out of fuel, there would be no way to get to the engine for priming, as the loader arms completely block access. Has anyone had this problem?

Best,

John/Fresno CA

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amos
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Re: new owner with basic questions

Post by amos » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:03 am

congrats on your new machine.Tranny first:clutch needs adjustment.Do several small adjustments versus a major adjustment: there is a procedure for clutch adjustment but decades old machines with slop in the linkages are more of a trial and error method.You want the clutch to just release at low RPM to allow for shifting and nothing more as too much leads to slippage in extreme mis-adjustments.1st and 2nd gear are your working gears and 3rd and 4th have probably rarely been used over the decades.
Your HLR can be operated without use of the clutch. When going forward and wishing to reverse just be sure to let forward motion come to a stop before going into reverse and vice versa. Slamming between forward and reverse causes undo stress in my opinion.
You can access the engine with loader arms lowered but an easy way it to rotate bucket forward to get cutting edge perpendicular to the ground then lower lift when done for the day. Keeps bucket drained from rain water and in this position the arms are up enough to access engine sides but arms are also stable(safety issue).
Fuel tank sizing: read somewhere that fuel tanks on ag and construction equipment of the 1960's era forward are sized to allow for operation at full load rating for 12-14 hours.So if you're working a machine hard you have enough fuel to work during daylight without having to stop and fuel up.
I've never worked anything I have that hard for that long but came close with a D6C when I was doing heavy clearing(probably 75% load) and it was burning through the fuel.Only had any dozer at full load when digging burn pits. Just regular clearing and pushing they are running at less than half load(now will run 24 hours+ between fill ups).
Also grease everything at least daily: grease is cheap and pins and bushings aren't.
Finally: welcome to the site. Many,many good members and we all like to help others and also seek advice.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

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amos
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Re: new owner with basic questions

Post by amos » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:22 am

Wife interrupted me again: on the 4 speed tranny there is no neutral but there are several false neutrals. When I was working on a 450C project machine I literally had to drag out of the woods in southern Louisiana it only had L and R with 1st and 2nd and 3rd and 4th couldn't be found. Tearing into it I found the shifter linkages to be worn at the pins. Replaced pins with double-nutted 5/16 x 1.5" bolts and they eliminated the slop and was able to find all 4 gears and HLR with ease.
You can find factory parts(priceless when looking for parts) and shop manuals(good to have) for a few hundred bucks on the net. These 2 manuals will save you hours and hours when working on your machine.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

JWedd
40C crawler
40C crawler
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:06 pm
Location: Fresno, CA

Re: new owner with basic questions

Post by JWedd » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:30 am

Thanks Amos! I appreciate the help.

The machine came with complete manuals, so I'll start figuring out what to do on the clutch. My neighbor said the tranny fluid looked slightly "cloudy" so we will be replacing that shortly.

That brings up another question, the JD manual says "303" special fluid, but some of these 40 year designations are not around any more. What have you been using for this fluid? I'll also get the forward filter and clean the inside the case strainer at the same time.

Shifter linkage on the 4 speed looks pretty tight, but the HLR looks to need a couple pins replaced.

This unit has had a new 239cu in dropped into it, so is running with a couple extra ponies. The complete records, and the previous owner, did a lot of work to it. The ring gear rivets had to be replaced, and the internals were completely gone through with any seals/lines replaced that could be a problem. Fortunately, everything has been done right, no corners cut. He even left a new fanbelt zip tied to the radiator, to avoid having to remove a good portion of the machine if the current one breaks.

John/Fresno

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: new owner with basic questions

Post by Stan Disbrow » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:16 am

Hi,

Regarding 303, that is still around at any farm supply store. It will be among a list of specs (Ford this, IH that, JD 303, etc) on the bucket label for whatever brand they carry. Deere replaced 303 with HyGard if you want to go that route.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

JWedd
40C crawler
40C crawler
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:06 pm
Location: Fresno, CA

Re: new owner with basic questions

Post by JWedd » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:55 am

Thanks Stan!

Any recs for on-line OEM parts at a discount? The local dealer is inconsistent, there is one counter guy that gives me competitive pricing, and the other guy that makes up for it, including charging me for shipping. Don't want to create bad vibes there, and I can usually plan my parts needs and maintenance.

So, just came from the seat, and here is what I found:

The extra "safety" neutral carved into the 4 speed shift pattern is between 3rd and 4th; when in that position with the engine running, the 4 speed can't be shifted into gear w/o grinding except with the engine off.

If the 4 speed is kept in 1-2-3, it can be shifted with clutch all the way down, no grinding in any gear.

So, it appears that if the extra safety neutral is used, the thing to do is to bring it into gear before starting.

A disconcerting moment: in the extra safety neutral, crawler rolled forward on its own. Only way to stop it was the brakes.

I don't think I'll be using that extra neutral. I may change my mind though if the HLR for some reason jumps into gear unexpectedly. But even then, clutching/braking should be quicker than trying to find another neutral on the 4 speed.

John/Fresno

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amos
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Re: new owner with basic questions

Post by amos » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:28 pm

Hi John,
Like Stan said 303 tractor hydraulic fluid can be found most anywhere. I get mine at a chain auto parts store.As to Hygard versus 303: on my newer 450G dozer i use hygard. On anything I have over 25 years old I use 303.
On engine oil I run straight 30 weight but I'm also in a temperate zone(Texas) and it rarely gets below freezing.On 100+ days JD recommends 40 weight but it's too dang hot to work in 100 degree weather so I don't.
Note on brakes: when tearing into mine it looked like the brake pedal engaged the right brake only and was design for locking that brake when dozer was idle/parked. The 2 steering levers engage both brakes and release the steering clutches when pulled back simultaneously.
Handy to know when backing off a trailer: try to slow and push in clutch and hit the foot brake and you'll get crossways on the ramps.Been there,done that(once).
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

JWedd
40C crawler
40C crawler
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:06 pm
Location: Fresno, CA

Re: new owner with basic questions

Post by JWedd » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:59 am

wow Amos, I'm going to try avoiding a white knuckle ride! On my new ranch, the one I acquired the 450C to do work, I've got plenty of rock piles that I need to deal with (maybe 100 loads of 25 tons), plus a hill with a 100foot slope. I'm getting a horrifying vision of me freewheeling down that hill out of control.

I'm thinking of making a small plate to block off 4th and the extra safety neutral spot on the 4speed. Keeping it in a gear all the time should at least allow engine braking all the time, with HLR engaged, correct? Even if the engine died at an unfortunate moment, it should fix itself to the hillside, as long as the clutch is engaged? I'm getting another bad vision too--getting close to a drop off and needing to stop forward progress suddenly. Natural thing to do is clutch/brake, just like any normal equipment.

Slamming on the brake with any neutral, while going up or down a hill--sounds like something more than an E ticket at Disneyland.

John/Fresno

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amos
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Re: new owner with basic questions

Post by amos » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:35 am

Hi John,
Drove a D6C off a steep and deep unforeseen embankment once when I was doing a blind push in ultra heavy undergrowth and up-ended it(blade forward and down) about 75 degrees.Then it started sliding to left. Had a winch on the back but angle was so steep I couldn't get hydraulic pressure to it. Couldn't drive forward as ditch was too narrow. Heck of a situation.Buddy winched me out next day with his D6D and told me about his cousin dropping a D-9 while backing (blind again: see the trend?) off into a deep ditch completely blade up 90 degrees. 2 cranes and 2 weeks of clearing and road building to get that one out.
Pretty hard to flip a crawler loader or dozer but make sure to use the seat belt and trust the ROPS. With seat belt and ROPS chances are you will stay protected in operators station. Try jumping off and chances are you won't survive.
If you are ever freewheeling down a hill stay as straight as possible and drop the blade or bucket. You'll come to a stop.
Locking out 3rd and or 4th is a good idea as I've never used either. Those are for scraper operation(when in transport mode) and similar high speed or high production requirements.
Safe to operate in 3rd and 4th high but why put the strain and wear on the undercarriage?
Once you get some hours in the seat muscle memory comes into play and you'll be shifting.operating the loader, blade,etc.without even thinking about it as it is more or less done by ear: you'll know from the sound when tracks are slipping,engine is loaded heavy etc.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

User avatar
amos
1010 crawler
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Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:29 am
Location: Piney Woods of east Texas

Re: new owner with basic questions

Post by amos » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:56 am

Hi John,
On HLR,tranny,engine function interactions:
Simple if you think of the HLR as an automatic transmission. It works based on hydraulic pressure and if internal hydraulic pressure is lost or diminished it will lose full function so: tooling down a steep hill and engine dies. You've some but not all pressure and tranny in gear will still supply some pressure by spinning HLR. Long way of saying you are not in total freewheel mode.
But with engine dead,tranny in neutral and HLR in neutral you still have full brake function if you pull both steering levers back toward your belly(hard).
Slam bucket/blade control forward and gravity allows it to lower.
JD engineers actually thought this through in thinking of what happens if there is a catastrophic engine failure while going down or up a steep,long hill.
Keep this in mind: slow is safe and fast is foolish.But above all else: ENJOY your machine! Moving dirt and shaping the earth to fit your dreams is supposed to be fun and fulfilling.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

JWedd
40C crawler
40C crawler
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:06 pm
Location: Fresno, CA

Re: new owner with basic questions

Post by JWedd » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:52 pm

Amos, thanks for that advice.

What do you think could be causing the 3rd-4th shafts to spin in that "safety neutral" with HLR in neutral, clutch all the way down, engine at idle?

Maybe there is some slight drag on the clutch disk at full engagement, and it needs to be adjusted? 4 speed shifts fine between 1-2-3 under same condition. Are there synchros in the 4 speed? I wouldn't think so.

I don't see a PTO lever below my air cleaner, though there is a PTO cover in the back. Even if there is a PTO, and it is engaged, I can't see it backfeeding through the tranny. But maybe...

Best,

John

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amos
1010 crawler
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Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:29 am
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Re: new owner with basic questions

Post by amos » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:51 am

Hi John,
Haven't come across the "safety neutral" so can't help on that.I would be more inclined to disregard it and look for gear lock up and trust HLR neutral and mechanical lock out on it. On PTO that would be a no. Attachment spinning(think mower) connected to PTO shaft is what in turn rotates a transmission on a direct drive PTO system.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

User avatar
amos
1010 crawler
1010 crawler
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:29 am
Location: Piney Woods of east Texas

Re: new owner with basic questions

Post by amos » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:54 am

Morning John,
I thought I would mention another safety concern. I think you are in Fresno CA and you also mentioned you will be working some rock piles. 2 things come to mind: bees (killer and bumble) and snakes. All of my equipment is open cab and so for I've got into paper hornets,bumble bees,yellow jackets,pigmy yellow jackets(mean little suckers),and have pushed up or run over rattlesnakes,copperheads and a water moccasin or two. Then you have skunks,rabbits,etc.
Rock piles will attract the snakes,hornets,wasps,and bees and nothing worse than being swarmed by stinging insects while on a moving machine or dropping a very irritated snake out of the bucket and onto the hood.
Inspection of,in my case. a brush pile before moving it helps. Machine vibration will get the critters stirring and then I can see where they are and how to deal with them.
Also there is a medicine called Sting Ease (or EZZ,or EZ) that is ammonia in a little ampule that you crush and apply to a sting. Actually works and i keep a box in my truck and if I remember it(rarely till I get stung) keep in machine tool box.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

JWedd
40C crawler
40C crawler
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:06 pm
Location: Fresno, CA

Re: new owner with basic questions

Post by JWedd » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:34 am

Amos, thanks for that reminder, which was to self: be sure to put bee helmut on.

15 years ago I stirred up a nest of very large dark colored stinging somethings when I pushed a pile of brush. I got nailed several times in the neck. Since then I've been highly allergic to bee and wasp stings, to the point of rushing into urgent care any time I get hit above the shoulders. As a result of all that, I bought myself a cab tractor.

And yes, big rattlesnakes on this new ranch. I have not seen them myself, but the neighbor on the other side of the hill killed one 5' long that was 6" thick. He said he had to use the shotgun on that one.

This unit has a good ROPs on it, so if I do something stupid I should be ok. But I'll need to mount a seat belt, as there isn't one yet.

Best,

John

JWedd
40C crawler
40C crawler
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:06 pm
Location: Fresno, CA

Re: new owner with basic questions

Post by JWedd » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:21 pm

so finally drained out the HLR fluid and the steering clutch fluid. 4 plugs on the steering clutches. Got almost 24 gallons of milky fluid out of this. The right steering clutch had an uncomfortable amount of goo. The strainer was loaded up with the drier lint stuff.

From what I read, the HLR and steering clutches are all common to each other. Manual says 15 gallons of fluid. I dump 15 gallons of fluid into the tranny fill port, check level, and it is way high. Thinking I just needed to start it up and spin a circle left and right to get the fluid evened out and recheck. Fluid still way high. Open the right plug of the steering clutch, and it is empty...

Are these all independent of each other...or just the steering clutches connected?

John

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