starting 450 after 15 years

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thomasgranat
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starting 450 after 15 years

Post by thomasgranat » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:16 pm

hi guys , just bought a 450 loader w 9300 hoe that has sat for 15 years. owner said steering power cylinder and brake band is shot on the left side. he said he found water in the oil when he ran it 3 years ago. I'm thinking completely purge old fuel , change engine oil, fill radiator with fresh coolant and ground pepper to hopefully plug the leak on the liner gasket. are the injectors hard to pull on this machine? I want to soak the piston rings with mmo before cranking. do I risk firing out of sequence and bending a rod if I do that? I have to get the machine running so I can transport it home. any advice you guys could give would be greatly appreciated .

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amos
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Re: starting 450 after 15 years

Post by amos » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:47 am

Dead 15 years and water in oil.No steering and other issues: Good winter project!Pepper trick good for emergency fix(measured in hours) and couldn't hurt as engine needs a rebuild anyway.Used good runners(complete) are out there via the net so that is an option too.Same on short and long blocks and all have a warranty.
On injectors: I've had some that came out with ease. Had some that I needed a 5 pound slide hammer to get out. Had some that I had to pull the head and drive out: you just really never know.
If it were me and starting was a must I would try to pull the injectors first but if they are stuck in place I would then call it a dead machine and get some help to get bucket and boom up and chained,then winch it onto a trailer and get it to my home shop where all my tools etc are.
You might have a decent crank and cam on the machine and trying to start without a tear down inspection could end up costing a lot of money.If owner shut it down before wiping rod and crank bearings engine could be an easy re-build. Or not,again you won't know till you get into it.
Keep us in the loop on your progress!
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

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amos
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Re: starting 450 after 15 years

Post by amos » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:54 am

Also: a plan helps as any heavy equipment can turn into a serious money pit.I buy,fix,and sell or keep 5-10 pieces of equipment a year.Some have been pretty easy and inexpensive fixes and some were not.Before I buy anything I research comps in my area: comps 500 miles away are useless.Craigslist(sold price and not asking price),Ebay,major auction sites are all good sources for this.When I see what realistic value is I then have a good idea of what to set budget at.
Here's a good example: man wanted to sell me a 450C loader with a bad engine(diesel thinned oil via injection pump seal failure and wiped out bearings etc) for $6000.00. But engine re-build,track work,steering clutch work,cylinder re-builds,and "unknowns" put repairs at $6000.00 to $8000.00 so machine would end up at 12K to 14K for a machine that has a local retail value of 8K to 9K for a good runner.Only way the math worked out was if he gave me the machine.
When you start tearing into your project it will be sooooooo much easier if you first remove the BH and loader attachments.20 hours doing that will save you 2 or 3 times the time on the other repairs and a priceless amount of frustration.A factory set of shop,service and parts manuals are a must have on this.You can find these on Amazon or E-bay.
A good A frame(3 ton rated) on casters along with a chain hoist on a trolley are also a must have.You can work without this but a broken arm or crushed hand is more expensive than the A frame set-up.
Even with the manuals a few pics of "before" help on re-assembly. Putting nuts,bolts,pieces and parts in labeled plastic bags helps as well.When removing hydraulic lines multi-colored plastic zip ties are a God send(Amazon).I think my set has 14 different colors.A dozer i brought in had all the hyd lines on the 6 way blade manifold connected wrong by previous owner(blew the hyd pump up and blew 4 hoses because of this). Took me 4 solid hours to get that sorted out.
Most all fasteners will be partially or totally seized: WD-40,Nutbuster and when those fail an oxy/acetylene rig with a rosebud to heat will help.
Take your time and when you start getting frustrated it's time to take a break: a few minutes or a few days.
Hope this is helpful.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

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thomasgranat
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Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:25 pm
Location: Auburn Ca

Re: starting 450 after 15 years

Post by thomasgranat » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:11 am

thanks for the good advice, I didn't give the crank and cam much thought but I see how that would be way more expensive than some rings and new liners. I like the zip tie tip. I will try to pull the injectors out to lube the rings but if I cant I still have to start it to get it where the tow company can winch it on the truck. I was hoping to dry crank it a bit to get fresh oil to everything before it gets under firing load. I am planning on rebuilding the engine but was hoping to do it in frame, next best is pulling it and do a new clutch at the same time. the previous owner gave me the shop repair manual and the parts book to the machine. I paid 700 for the machine and they seem to be going for around 10 to 15 k around here, northern Ca if they are running. I have seen a few for 8 grand and they disappear quick. my plan is to get a machine by putting a lot of sweat equity into it. the machine has 4300 hours on it and the uc is at 90 percent according to the tractor repair guy, I paid him to come out and evaluate it because I know very little about crawlers. does pulling the injectors usually destroy the o ring and carbon seal ? the tractor guy said it was likely that I would be rebuilding ram seals after using it a bit as well.

JWB Contracting
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Re: starting 450 after 15 years

Post by JWB Contracting » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:53 pm

We prime motors with high pressure oil with a 12V electric hydraulic pack before starting an engine that has sat for some time. We buy lots of non running equipment for wrecking and rebuilding and is not often we can't save the rotating assemblies.

If you pull injectors make sure you blow out all of the lubricant before firing it up. Plan on bringing lots of batteries and a variety of pry bars to get the injectors out. Be careful not to bend them, and get them rotating first.

The water in the engine most likely came in thru the exhaust or intake. You can taste the oil for antifreeze content to confirm. on a Deere it's normal to do a taste test for diesel if your engine oil level is rising.
Jason Benesch

John Deere 350C Crawler Dozer with 3pt Hitch
John Deere 2010 Crawler Dozer with Winch
John Deere 430U Tractor (2)
John Deere 435 Tractor
Oliver 1900 Tractor

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amos
1010 crawler
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Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:29 am
Location: Piney Woods of east Texas

Re: starting 450 after 15 years

Post by amos » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:29 am

On injector seal rings: probably going to be shot when you pull the injectors. I'd pick up 4 new to be prepared.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

User avatar
thomasgranat
40C crawler
40C crawler
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:25 pm
Location: Auburn Ca

Re: starting 450 after 15 years

Post by thomasgranat » Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:27 pm

I put 1 1/2 gallons of coolant into the radiator to fill it up. drained the oil sump and got 1 1/2 gallons of coolant out before oil started coming out. for a second almost wondered if I had opened a coolant drain of some sort ? water level has stayed constant in the radiator for 24 hours now so maybe not a bad sleeve seal. the diesel is all red and smells really rank. best part is engine serial number is missing off block. well Tuesday we are going to change all the fuel filters and prelube the engine. I'm now thinking of retorquing the head and trying head gasket sealant to cut down on the coolant getting into the oil . would be nice to not sludge it up further. 1 1/2 gallons seems like a massive leak to me. been using the old diesel to rinse sludge out of the sump. do the casting numbers on the block help determine what parts and gaskets the engine needs?

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