Virginia 450 Help

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Birddog
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Virginia 450 Help

Post by Birddog » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:05 am

Hello All - Anybody in the central Virginia area available to fix the brakes on my 450 Trackloader? Know a good mechanic thats not the JD Dealer?
Virginia - 1967 JD 450 - Trackloader - 4n1 - Backhoe

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amos
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Re: Virginia 450 Help

Post by amos » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:50 am

Have you tried adjusting them? A better description of what is going on would help us help you.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

Birddog
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Re: Virginia 450 Help

Post by Birddog » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:17 pm

Amos
Thanks for the reply and sorry for my delay. I have been adjusting as needed and now the band adjustment bolt in the side access is bottomed out. I have been using the process/procedure as laid out in the manual. I assume this means I need a new brake band or is there some other adjustment to consider?
Virginia - 1967 JD 450 - Trackloader - 4n1 - Backhoe

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amos
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Re: Virginia 450 Help

Post by amos » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:42 am

Your machine is supposed to have dry clutches and brakes: any oil in there? If there is that is your problem(seal gone).
If your adjustment is bottomed out the bands are gone.I'm in Texas so can't offer a suggestion on a repair tech in your area. On using a JD shop: Yup, they do seem to be expensive but you'll get JD parts and they do stand behind their work, Also: brake band replacement is a very common repair (as is any brake work on any dozer) so the hours quoted is from the "book" and might not be all that terrible.
Brake job means new bands,some new seals,maybe a bearing or 2 and when done right it's a long lasting fix.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

Birddog
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Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:38 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Virginia 450 Help

Post by Birddog » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:51 pm

Amos
Thank you very much. Very sound advice. I will reconsider a quote from the JD Dealer and share some info on that. I wish I had the time to take it on.

Another question while we are at it. Would you take on rebuilding hydraulic cylinder yourself? Never done it but my lack of fear of trying something myself sometimes creates more issues. Pretty straight forward or leave it to a guy that does it all the time?
Virginia - 1967 JD 450 - Trackloader - 4n1 - Backhoe

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amos
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Re: Virginia 450 Help

Post by amos » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:27 am

On cylinders I do it both ways.It's really pretty straight forward if you can get the outer gland off. Sometimes that is a real bear.To get that one blankety,blankety gland off when stuck:
Clean down to metal or paint and look for the locking allen head set screw on the cylinder body at the gland(might have one or might not)
Soak with penetrating oil and tap with hammer.
Remove lock screw and save
Using correct hook spanner or a chain wrench try to remove gland(it will be difficult).
After you get a better quality hook spanner to replace the one you just broke,try again and tap/beat with bigger hammer and it might come off.
Once you get the end gland off or loose then disconnect the hoses,pull the cylinder pins,and pull the cylinder.
With gland off pull the ram and then all is revealed for re-build. Pretty straight forward.
Or: take it to a good ship and for $150.00 to $250.00 parts and labor they will do it for you. Probably comes back with new paint to boot.
i was re-building a little steering cylinder on a TLB and ended up shattering the cast metal gland($140.00 for new forged metal one) and needed a hydraulic press to get the piston off of the ram. Crazy hard that one was.
Had others that took less than an hour. You just never know.
Had an angle cylinder for a 450C that had a scored cylinder tube and bad threads on same. Required "re-tubing" and re-manufacturing. Probably the most complete re-pair of a cylinder and even at that the shop I use charged $475.00. New cylinder on net was $1100.00 and not currently available.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

Birddog
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Posts: 12
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Location: Virginia

Re: Virginia 450 Help

Post by Birddog » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:18 pm

Thank you Amos
I will be pulling them off and taking to a shop. Sounds like that is really reasonable to get them worked over. I have two that need attention on the machine. Need to get the hoe going and will probably need a couple there too.
Virginia - 1967 JD 450 - Trackloader - 4n1 - Backhoe

Birddog
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Re: Virginia 450 Help

Post by Birddog » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:43 pm

Ok - trying to fully rule out no adjustment left in the brakes before I take the mechanic plunge. I need some coaching on the following from the manual if anyone can provide insight.

4. Tighten the brake band adjusting screw until tight when not in detent (1/4 turn past detent)

What does ¨when not in detent¨ mean?

5. With brake pedal back against stop, loosen jam nuts and adjust yokes on brake rods so that pins will just go in.

Does ¨with brake pedal back against stop¨ mean brake pedal all the way pushed in?
Need better explanation of the ¨yokes on brake rods¨ The picture in both manuals is so hard to see I dont know how this is different from the ¨steering brake bellcrank actuator screw¨
Virginia - 1967 JD 450 - Trackloader - 4n1 - Backhoe

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amos
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Re: Virginia 450 Help

Post by amos » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:32 am

Birddog wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:43 pm
Ok - trying to fully rule out no adjustment left in the brakes before I take the mechanic plunge. I need some coaching on the following from the manual if anyone can provide insight.

4. Tighten the brake band adjusting screw until tight when not in detent (1/4 turn past detent)

What does ¨when not in detent¨ mean?

5. With brake pedal back against stop, loosen jam nuts and adjust yokes on brake rods so that pins will just go in.

Does ¨with brake pedal back against stop¨ mean brake pedal all the way pushed in?
Need better explanation of the ¨yokes on brake rods¨ The picture in both manuals is so hard to see I dont know how this is different from the ¨steering brake bellcrank actuator screw¨
The detent is what feels like a low spot in the adjustment.You'll feel some resistance when turning the adjuster and then a slight slip:that's the detent.
The stop is the blocking you are using to hold the brake lever handle back from its full forward position. About 1.25" will work(for lever steer).
For pedel steer you block the pedel to hold it "in" about the same 1.25"
Foot brake adjustment for a lever steer machine:adjust linkage from pedal actuating rod to brake till snug then lossen a bit.This is usually connected to right brake only and is a parking brake.
Got a cylinder story for you: working on a TLB tilt cylinder and had to use my truck to pull the ram. Re-packed and had to use a 10# hammer to get it back in(properly re-built and lubed). Buddy at JD shop said "yup, those were always a bear to re-pack.Hated 'em...".
Like I said earlier on cylinders:you just never know.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

Birddog
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Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:38 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Virginia 450 Help

Post by Birddog » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:49 am

Thanks Amos

Cylinders sound like a beast. You can see on mine where someone struggled at one time or another with the spanner. I found a guy that will replace the bands and fix the cylinders. He said ¨sometimes they are a bear¨

Ok on detent - something like that is what I thought it meant BUT I feel no detent all the way to full tight. Assume thats worn or non existent at this point or the adjustment bolt is past the detent because of the worn band.

So on the item 5 is ¨pedal back against stop¨ I already have the levers blocked so you are saying just where the pedal is while those blocks are under the levers. I didnt notice a 3rd adjustment in the right hole but will go back and look.
Virginia - 1967 JD 450 - Trackloader - 4n1 - Backhoe

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amos
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Re: Virginia 450 Help

Post by amos » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:13 am

Just keep plugging away,you'll get there.All my heavy equipment is done now so working on a couple of farm tractors. In frame engine rebuild on one(along with some seals and other assorted repairs) and other should be some wiring,brakes,and regular heavy maintenance cycle. Tractor parts are smaller and lighter. Nice change from the large and heavy construction equipment parts.
Still managed to take a chunk of skin from left fore finger: equipment Gods must have their toll.
Tech note on used versus new pistons: If ring grooves are not clean and pristine get a new piston(or have old ones re-worked by a machine shop). Rings need to rotate freely within the grooves and the grooves are a precision cut.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

User avatar
amos
1010 crawler
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Posts: 359
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:29 am
Location: Piney Woods of east Texas

Re: Virginia 450 Help

Post by amos » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:16 am

Birddog wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:49 am
Thanks Amos

Cylinders sound like a beast. You can see on mine where someone struggled at one time or another with the spanner. I found a guy that will replace the bands and fix the cylinders. He said ¨sometimes they are a bear¨

Ok on detent - something like that is what I thought it meant BUT I feel no detent all the way to full tight. Assume thats worn or non existent at this point or the adjustment bolt is past the detent because of the worn band.

So on the item 5 is ¨pedal back against stop¨ I already have the levers blocked so you are saying just where the pedal is while those blocks are under the levers. I didnt notice a 3rd adjustment in the right hole but will go back and look.
The 3rd adjustment is for the linkage on the brake pedal. Pull the right floor board and you'll see an adjustable yoke for the brake pedal rod connected to the brake pedal itself.Rod continues back to and through the housing and is connected to the right brake band.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

Birddog
40C crawler
40C crawler
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:38 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Virginia 450 Help

Post by Birddog » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:40 am

Ok and so the linkage goes across and both bands are used at once for the pedal brake right?
Virginia - 1967 JD 450 - Trackloader - 4n1 - Backhoe

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amos
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Re: Virginia 450 Help

Post by amos » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:20 pm

Birddog wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:40 am
Ok and so the linkage goes across and both bands are used at once for the pedal brake right?
On older equipment no. Engages right brake band only. Foot brake is the parking brake.
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

Birddog
40C crawler
40C crawler
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:38 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Virginia 450 Help

Post by Birddog » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:00 pm

Oh wow Ok thats why I asked we may be on to something. Why does my pedal brake work but hand lever doesnt on right side? Must be adjustment issue im not doing properly. Going to machine tomorrow and will see what I can discover.....will report back.
Virginia - 1967 JD 450 - Trackloader - 4n1 - Backhoe

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