Battery cables overheating

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Warrior0677
40C crawler
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by Warrior0677 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:58 am

Whoa! Lots of discussion that I'm reading this morning. But you guys are getting my wheels turning. I'll see if I can respond to each one of you without turning this into a novel. LOL.

I don't have the complete manual set for this 450 yet. Working on it thought. LOL. I do have one for my 350 and I could take that machine apart and put it back together blindfolded. The directional reverser threw a bearing a couple of years ago...that was fun. But yes, those manuals are worth their weight in gold. That being said, I also enjoy tinkering with older machines and bringing them back to life. Despite being frustrated at times. But at 40 yrs old, I do have a lot more patience than I used to. In my 20's I would have used the motto we used in the Army: If it doesn't work, get a hammer. It is still doesn't work, get a bigger hammer. After that, just use C4. LOL.

The discussion about the internal problem creating a heavy load has merit. It got me to thinking about something else that happened while I was removing the IP, yesterday. Let me see if I can explain this without getting too long winded...no promises though. Just forgive me if I don't have all of the correct terminology. When I realized the injector pump was not working, and decided to remove it, I took the small "window" off of the side of the injector pump to line up the marks (setting it to TDC). Of course with the shaft broken, the "gear" in pump was not going to move. So I removed the bolt \ pin \ cover plate near the flywheel...the one that has the pin you can turn around and slip into the hole of the flywheel indicating TDC. (And if I'm wrong, please for the love of God tell me...lol). However, when I tried turning the fan manually, that's when I realized that the main shaft (front of engine on the bottom) was not moving. The belt was just slipping around the pully. Like the shaft was binding. So trying to turn the flywheel by hand was a no-go. When I pushed the start button, however, the starter did move everything. (I mention this, because when I removed the IP the first time, I was able to move it all by hand). So I opted to remove the IP and decided to deal with the TDC issue later. Once I removed the injector pump, which I had to pry off (can't remember doing that before), on a wild card I decided to try and turn the engine by hand again. Viola...everything turned freely and I used the flywheel to find TDC.

It seems to me that all of this indicates something was seized up or just "stiff or binding". Could this be the case? If so, logic tells me that this would contribute to the overload. Please share any additional thoughts on what you think might have caused this?

So the plan now is to fix / replace the injector pump. Of course, replace the injector pump drive shaft. Pull the injectors and do some investigating.

Amos: You mentioned hydraulic lock. I'm unfamiliar with this concept. Can you elaborate a little for me? Oh...and you keep your grubby fingers off of my machine. This my frustrating, anger building C4 exploding project. LOL.

To all: Anyone know where I can find that IP drive shaft? Part number R36538. JD quit making them in '89 and apparently they don't make a replacement part. Tried ebay already. If I can't find one, I'll have local machine shop make one (one of the advantages of have a dad that's been a machinist for 45 years).

Thank again, everyone.
1976 John Deere 450C; 1981 John Deere 350C

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by Stan Disbrow » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:24 am

Hi,

There is a piece in older IPs that tends to disintegrate. Usually, the bits wind up plugging the fuel return and the thing won't run. I had a different issue in one which led to it seizing up and that snapped the shaft.

Any sort of a mechanical issue inside the engine, like a twisting ring or a shell bearing slipping or a seizing up IP, leads to an overly high resistance to cranking over. That make the starter motor work a lot harder than normal. Which, in turn, leads it to draw too much from the battery and that means heating cables.

Well, if the starter and battery and connections are all good. Any of the usual 'old and feeble' in the electrical system and it just won't turn over if the mechanical load is too high.

Hydraulic lock is when a liquid (fuel, oil, water) gets into a cylinder and stops the piston traveling up to TDC on the compression stroke. It can also occur in the injection system if the injector can't unseat and let the fuel spray out. Now, that would lead to an overload on the IP if things went weird.

I usually take a problem IP *and* the injectors to the IP shop and let those guys with the proper equipment do their thing. In this case the injectors aren't rebuildable but you'd know what was up with them even if you are planning on replacing them all while you are at it.

Stan
Last edited by Stan Disbrow on Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

bennyt
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by bennyt » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:34 am

Back to basics. Clean the spot where your neg cable grounds to.

B Town
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by B Town » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:46 am

It sounds like there is some significant resistance in the pump. A good diesel shop will have a shaft. Spend the extra $$ and have them troubleshoot and rebuild the pump.
To avoid further problems and extra $$$, remove the injectors and make sure the engine turns freely with starter and the high load situation is resolved before you put the pump back on.
If you have gone this far consider rebuilding or replacing the injectors.
Stan has a very good explanation of hydraulic lock. Gases are compressible, liduids are not, if the liquid volume in the chamber exceeds the combustion volume there is going to be a serious mechanical issue. Good luck, Bruce

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amos
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by amos » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:42 am

Hi Warrior,Stan and others beat me to explanation of hydraulic lock and they were spot on. Going to be a little while until your IP is ready:good time to pull injectors and spin engine. ANY fluid blowing out if injector hole means head has to come off and locate the source. Let's assume they appear dry: I'd still pull the head as something ain't right(in my most humble opinion).
You mentioned you were operating machine and she just died. Fiddled with it and it started and died again and then start circuit overheat issues seen.
Diesels are really very simple: if you have fuel,air,and combustion something will happen. It would appear you have fuel feed issue(IP cratered eventually) as well as indication of unusually high compression(start circuit over heat).
Removal of head is one of the cheaper major diagnostic steps: a few gaskets and a couple of hours and just like pulling and inspecting plugs on a gas engine, removing head and inspection of head,valves,piston,and upper liner condition will tell you a lot.
Also: unit been down for a while. Check radiator for any indication of oil. Then loosen crankcase drain(don't remove as all you want to do is get a small "dribble" as water,if there,should be what comes out first) and look closely for any indication of water.
Next: check for water in fuel at drain on bottom of fuel tank. Then go to filter and check there as well.
I'd probably check for water in fuel first: heck of alot easier than pulling the head and if you find water you've found your root problem.
And c'mon,let me crank on a wrench too. I hardly ever end of with "spare" parts left over :lol:
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

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amos
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by amos » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:44 am

amos wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:42 am
Hi Warrior,Stan and others beat me to explanation of hydraulic lock and they were spot on. Going to be a little while until your IP is ready:good time to pull injectors and spin engine. ANY fluid blowing out if injector hole means head has to come off and locate the source. Let's assume they appear dry: I'd still pull the head as something ain't right(in my most humble opinion).
You mentioned you were operating machine and she just died. Fiddled with it and it started and died again and then start circuit overheat issues seen.
Diesels are really very simple: if you have fuel,air,and combustion something will happen. It would appear you have fuel feed issue(IP cratered eventually) as well as indication of unusually high compression(start circuit over heat).
Removal of head is one of the cheaper major diagnostic steps: a few gaskets and a couple of hours and just like pulling and inspecting plugs on a gas engine, removing head and inspection of head,valves,piston,and upper liner condition will tell you a lot.
Also: unit been down for a while. Check radiator for any indication of oil. Then loosen crankcase drain(don't remove as all you want to do is get a small "dribble" as water,if there,should be what comes out first) and look closely for any indication of water.
Next: check for water in fuel at drain on bottom of fuel tank. Then go to filter and check there as well.
I'd probably check for water in fuel first: heck of alot easier than pulling the head and if you find water you've found your root problem.
And c'mon,let me crank on a wrench too. I hardly ever end of with "spare" parts left over :lol:
Fuel,air and COMPRESSION: not "combustion". I really need to proof read better. Sorry 'bout that.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

dtoots1
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by dtoots1 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:51 pm

i see that Lavoy hasn't had chance to tie into this as yet...

Tho you should contact Lavoy on pm and see what he has for your ipshaft!!

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amos
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by amos » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:59 am

Morning Warrior,
Any progress on troubleshooting? Would like to hear what you've found as it helps me as well.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

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Lavoy
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by Lavoy » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:45 am

I would bet pretty heavily that it is not internal resistance in the engine. If it was, that resistance would still exist once the engine is running. This would manifest itself very quickly when the engine locked up, which it hasn't.
I doubt any sort of over fueling by the pump, as this too would exist after startup and the engine would not run correctly.
Changing battery cables made a significant difference, but the cables used were from a crawler with a smaller engine which would likely come with smaller cables. Any cable on any engine is going to get warm after 15 seconds of cranking, starters are not wired for continuous use. I have seen manufacturer recommendations to limit cranking to 15 seconds or less, then wait for a minute or more.
Not being able to turn over the engine with the fan is not difficult to believe, the fan belt on a 420 will slip when I try to turn them with the fan, and you are dealing with 1/3 the compression ratio, and half the cylinders.
Throw all of the cables and ends away, I have had VISUALLY good wires turn out to be bad, hence why I seldom reuse cables. Go to a good automotive shop that makes cables and have them make you new ones, go a gauge heavier if you want. Clean the ground spotless, put a star washer under the cable and use a new bolt. You can even run a longer ground to the engine block if you desire.
Lastly, I have removed freshly rebuilt starters from a box, installed them and had exactly your issue, starter was junk, it is not at all impossible.
I don't do any IP work I send it out to one of my suppliers I trust, and no one else (see rebuilt starter reference above).
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

Warrior0677
40C crawler
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by Warrior0677 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:43 pm

Good evening, everyone. I apologize for not yet posting a follow up. There was really no need until I either hit another snag or fixed the problem. As you all know, at the time of my last post, I had pulled the IP and then found the that IP drive shaft had snapped. I had the pump checked out at my local shop and they determined that water had gotten into the IP and seized it up. Bought a new pump with drive shaft because it was almost as expensive to have it rebuilt. I also pulled the injectors and had them tested. No Hydro lock (thank God), but they weren't "pulsing". It was just a steady spray (not even a mist), so I bought 4 of those. Checked the cylinders for oil, water, fuel...they were dry. Compression test checked out as well. Pulled the engine oil plug just for grins and giggles...no water. All in all, everything checked out. I took Lavoy's advice and replaced all battery cables (upgrading from a 1/O to a 2/O and used a new bolt). After reassembling everything, she fired right up and I put about 4 hours on it yesterday.

BATTERY CABLES OVERHEATING: I am inclined to agree with Mr. Lavoy. The main battery cable issue was due to weak cables. After assembling everything (still had the lines disconnected from the injectors) I was cranking the engine in an attempt to push the air out of the lines. After about 10 seconds, I released the button. On a whim, I checked the battery cables and they we barely warm. Cranked another round of 10 seconds before it occurred to me that I never heard the IP solenoid click. Anyone wanna guess why? Anyone? OK...times up. I had forgotten to connect the itty bitty power wire to the IP. LOL! [face palm]. Anyway, after connecting it, I had fuel pumping through the lines within another 5-10 seconds (cables were still cool). Hooked up the lines and it started in about 2 seconds.

Thank you, everyone for the help.

Amos: I only had 3 pins and 4 bolts left over.
1976 John Deere 450C; 1981 John Deere 350C

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amos
1010 crawler
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by amos » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:41 pm

GOOD JOB! Warrior and no C-4 or DetCord required :P
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by Stan Disbrow » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:18 am

Hi,

I love it when a plan comes together. :)

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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