Battery cables overheating

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Warrior0677
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Battery cables overheating

Post by Warrior0677 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:27 pm

This is my first time posting here, so be kind. LOL. I have a late model 450C (1976). I recently changed all fluids and filters. I was operating it and it just died, like someone hit the kill switch. I had only used it about 10 to 15 hours after performing the previously mentioned maintenance items. Upon trying to restart, I noticed the battery terminals smoking (which would indicate a dead ground somewhere. They were overheating within a few seconds. Since this happened, I have performed the following:

Cleaned all main power connections to include the negative terminal
Rebuilt the starter (had it tested)
Rebuilt the injector pump (was installed properly)
Checked every wire for any kind of break.

Afterwards, I did get it to run for about an hour. Took it into the tree line (clear cutting), shut it down. Come back to it and it wouldn't start. Same problem. Battery cables overheating within a few seconds. At this point, I found a fray in the positive wire the goes to the injector pump (I missed it on the first inspection of the wiring). My guess it that this is what shut the machine down the first time (and the second). After reinstalling the injector pump, I must have moved the frayed part off of the body which is what allowed the machine to start. During the move from it's location to the tree line, it must have rested back against the body which is why it wouldn't start the second time. I fixed that wire, but the battery cables are still overheating quickly and the machine will not start. Since then, I have performed the following:

Replaced main wiring harness and voltage regulator
Replaced master power switch (it was broken)
Switched alternator, grounding cable, main power cable, battery and key switch with my 350C (all same parts)
Rechecked all other wires (a little closer this time...LOL) to including re-cleaning all terminals.
Took the starter off and had it re-tested in the shop

I'm familiar with this machine, but I'm not an expert. Does anyone have any ideas on what to check? I'm at a loss. Thanks in advance.
1976 John Deere 450C; 1981 John Deere 350C

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gregjo1948
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by gregjo1948 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:44 am

Maybe there's a battery problem.
JD 350B diesel 6way blade, Case 580B Loader/backhoe, Farmall 504 high crop w/ flail boom mower, International 404 , International 284 diesel w/belly mower, 1972 Ford F600 dump truck, Galion 3-5 roller, Allis Chalmers D17, 1620 Ford

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:27 am

Hi,

For the battery cables to overheat, there has to be an issue with the cables themselves or the starter. Any issue with any of the little wires would see them burn up into oblivion in a few seconds with the current the battery can deliver thru the fat cables.

Since you swapped out the large wiring and the battery, I am suspecting an intermittent problem in the starter.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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amos
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by amos » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:29 am

Major dead short somewhere. Pull side boards and floor board and keep looking for source of grounding on positive battery cable. It's there somewhere.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
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Warrior0677
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by Warrior0677 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:24 am

Thank you everyone for the responses so far.

gregjo1948: I switched the battery out with my 350. 350 started fine. 450...same issue.

Stan: That was my thinking as well. To create that much heat that quickly, would've melted any smaller cable. I'm not discounting that the starter may be the problem, but I had it tested in the shop twice (as well as rebuilt). But I will certainly keep that in mind. I only wish my 350 had the same starter. LOL. I'd like to try to rule everything else out before I toss a new starter on it. That's a good bit of money.

Amos: No doubt there's a major short, my friend. But I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. But that's the life of owning equipment, right? LOL.

All that being said, I should have mentioned that the plan is to go back out today and start back from scratch (hence the reason for having the starter retested). I'm going to start swapping pieces (beginning with the battery, negative and positive cable), checking connections, etc. The problem is there and I'm confident it can be fixed...if I can just find it.

The main reason I posted this was to see if someone had any other ideas. Perhaps something I'm missing that I need to check. (Murphy's law and all)

If anyone else has any ideas, please don't hesitate to let me know. Thanks.
1976 John Deere 450C; 1981 John Deere 350C

original possum
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by original possum » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:47 am

Unless the cables got hot WHILE you were cranking, I would suspect the solenoid.
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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:19 am

Hi,

Good point. And, I ought to have made it earlier. ;)

The solenoid is two things: it moves pinion into the ring gear, and it is a big, fat, power switch. If the contact parts move around inside the solenoid case, you can get a high current path to ground. That'll heat up the cables all right. Yet when removed, that could well not happen given the different orientation on the test bench. Been there. Done that.

There is also a big, fat power strip goes between the switch inside the solenoid and the inside of the starter. Can also be this piece moving around a bit.

The thought that heating while cranking or not tells you if the issue is more inside the solenoid switching parts or the inside of the starter proper.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

Warrior0677
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by Warrior0677 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:16 pm

Thanks again everyone. The heating only occurs when cranking. Afterwards, everything cools off. The solenoid is brand new. Part of the rebuild. Although I'm not discounting that it could be faulty. Remember, though, the overheating issue took place before the starter rebuild. Also the power strip from the solenoid to the starter is solid and tight.

That being said, I replaced the cables with the ones on my 350. The terminals still got hot, but didn't get hot as quickly (maybe 10 to 15 seconds of cranking). Still too hot to touch though. So I'm going to bite the bullet and just replace those cables. Ever price the main cable for the 450? Holy crap it's expensive...well to me it is. LOL.

Now, I did find out why it wouldn't start. I checked the fuel flow through the injector pump. Nothing. To make a long story short, after tracing the problem, I removed the top and found a couple of fragments of the inside body. Not sure how it happened, but something inside broke. So I removed the pump and found the shaft had been sheared off. My guess a piece of fragment fell inside and lodged, seizing the pump and caused the shaft to snap. But I'll know more when I get it back apart.

I shared that last part so I could ask this stupid question (Murphy's law). Could the non-work injector pump somehow cause the cables to overheat? It doesn't seem like it would if you take into account that the wire going to the injector pump is so small. In any case, I'm going to have to address the pump issue before determining the cause of the overheat. I was just wondering if you guys think I'm dealing with a related issue or do you think these are independent of each other?

Thanks.
1976 John Deere 450C; 1981 John Deere 350C

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:26 pm

Hi,

The pump might have heavily loaded the cranking. That would lead to heat. Up until the overload snapped the neckdown on the pump driveshaft. BTW, the neckdown is there to shear on a pump overload before the load rips the teeth off the timing gears.

But, after the shaft snapped, the load would be gone and the heating would be gone as well....

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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amos
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by amos » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:09 pm

Show me the money... Yes,heavy equipment is expensive to maintain. Had some Harleys and HD stood for Hundred Dollar shop.have a couple boats:
"B"reak
"O"ut
"A"nother
"T"housand
Then I thought gee heavy equipment seems cost effective. Think of the money I'll save doing my own clearing,road building,house and barn pads...
First time I dropped a few grand for some smalls( "cheap" little pieces and parts) it seemed less than a wonderful idea :D
Does have it's good points: since I love fixing stuff I feel great taking something that most see as scrap iron and bringing it back to life and working it.
A little advice: get a complete manual set. Parts manual is your new bible,then service and operators manual.
Equipment parts can be heavy. Don't get in a hurry or careless. Easy to lose a finger,break bones,or get really hurt.
For most of us this is supposed to be fun. Minute you start getting frustrated take a break and drink some tea or just sit back and think a bit.
Lots and lots of good people here and there is never a dumb question so don't be bashful about asking.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
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amos
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by amos » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:23 pm

Stan Disbrow wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:19 am
Hi,

Good point. And, I ought to have made it earlier. ;)

The solenoid is two things: it moves pinion into the ring gear, and it is a big, fat, power switch. If the contact parts move around inside the solenoid case, you can get a high current path to ground. That'll heat up the cables all right. Yet when removed, that could well not happen given the different orientation on the test bench. Been there. Done that.

There is also a big, fat power strip goes between the switch inside the solenoid and the inside of the starter. Can also be this piece moving around a bit.

The thought that heating while cranking or not tells you if the issue is more inside the solenoid switching parts or the inside of the starter proper.

Stan
Hi Stan,
What about high amp draw when cranking being caused by internal issue with the engine itself? Poster could be seeing high amp draw as main problem when it's a secondary issue. Your thoughts?If it were me I'd probably pull the injectors to releive compression,spin engine,and then check for high amp draw/overheating problem with cables.Hydraulic lock maybe? If he sees fluid blowing out when injectors are pulled it would confirm it.I'd probably pop the rocker arm cover and look at valve action as well.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by Stan Disbrow » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:50 am

Hi,

Exactly. Anything going wrong internally which increases the cranking load will cause higher current draw by the starter. I think if we now have a snapped driveshaft to the IP, we can think this is why the battery cables were heating up. Very, very unfortunately. Because IPs cost a lot more than starters do.

I used to race cars and had more than the normal fair share of things going wrong. :P I did have the same sort of issue with the IP on my 68 JD350. It also snapped the driveshaft, but while running. The engine loaded down, I hit the clutch pedal and it kept winding down until it quit. It wouldn't restart, of course. I missed the heating of the battery cables because the extra load had gone. But, if it hadn't snapped while running I would have had that issue.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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amos
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by amos » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:02 am

Stan Disbrow wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:50 am
Hi,

Exactly. Anything going wrong internally which increases the cranking load will cause higher current draw by the starter. I think if we now have a snapped driveshaft to the IP, we can think this is why the battery cables were heating up. Very, very unfortunately. Because IPs cost a lot more than starters do.

I used to race cars and had more than the normal fair share of things going wrong. :P I did have the same sort of issue with the IP on my 68 JD350. It also snapped the driveshaft, but while running. The engine loaded down, I hit the clutch pedal and it kept winding down until it quit. It wouldn't restart, of course. I missed the heating of the battery cables because the extra load had gone. But, if it hadn't snapped while running I would have had that issue.

Stan
Warrior 0677: when you get the injection pump installed you might want to pull the injectors and do some investigating before trying to start with new IP. Would be a very bad day if new IP got thrashed right at the get go. Thanks for your input Stan, You are the man :D
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

dtoots1
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by dtoots1 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:53 am

Subject sure is getting off of battery cables....

However, it sure is educating to see what issues arise....Now you all got me curious....what kinda pressure build up causes the injector pump shaft to break? (Or what did cause it to break?) Seems should really almost always have 1 injector open plus the return, unless all are plugged. I know wear out is a bit different, but usually is some indication of it doing so. Fortunately mine is a gas job and a bit simpler.

By the way it is pretty neat that we have such fine DETECTIVES solving these mysteries!! sight unseen!

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amos
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Re: Battery cables overheating

Post by amos » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:29 am

dtoots1 wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:53 am
Subject sure is getting off of battery cables....

However, it sure is educating to see what issues arise....Now you all got me curious....what kinda pressure build up causes the injector pump shaft to break? (Or what did cause it to break?) Seems should really almost always have 1 injector open plus the return, unless all are plugged. I know wear out is a bit different, but usually is some indication of it doing so. Fortunately mine is a gas job and a bit simpler.

By the way it is pretty neat that we have such fine DETECTIVES solving these mysteries!! sight unseen!
Morning dtoots,
The cutdown drive shaft on the IP is a sacrificial part (I think Stan mentioned that).If discharge pressure exceeds limit then shaft shears to save gear train that drives the pump.
Don't have my books handy but diesels compression is approximately 300 to 400 PSI versus 100 to 150 on typical gas engine.
Then toss in direct injection(fuel pressure no less than compression) or precombustion chamber injection(lower fuel pressure required).
Warrior(original poster) had a high amp draw condition that seems to have appeared out of the blue. He said he had checked for dead short multiple times,checked starter etc then the IP shaft sheared. That got me to thinking engine issue. If cylinders are getting fluid in them(oil from shot valve seals,water from blown head gasket or bad sleeve,etc) this would cause hydraulic lock or close to it on compression stroke (high amp load at start) as well as back pressure for injectors which will in turn cause high pressure at IP and shear the shaft.
Would love to have this machine to put my hands on to troubleshoot and repair but alas I don't and can only offer advice based on my past experience.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

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