JD 450C radiator issues

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atbrdly
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JD 450C radiator issues

Post by atbrdly » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:31 am

Hello,

I am a new owner of a JD 450 C. I am having an issue with the radiator spitting out coolant from the overflow hole in the neck of the radiator. It starts spitting out as it gets up to operating temperature. It doesn't seem to overheat until it looses enough coolant. The previous owner said he replaced the cap several times to no avail. Could someone help me with troubleshooting and finding out what the problem is? I checked the oil and there is no water/coolant in the oil. I don't notice any oil in the coolant either....any help would be appreciated.

BTW - The radiator itself looks worn out. the fins on it looks as if they have rusted and rotted. (I know that doesn't mean the internal is bad) I'm sure the radiator could use replacing (original 81 model) but I can't afford to put a new radiator in and that not be the problem.

B Town
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Re: JD 450C radiator issues

Post by B Town » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:21 am

I guess the question is- Is it losing coolant because it is overheating or is it building pressure.

Easy enough to check for overheating, with temp gun or thermometer.

The more likely and expensive cause I have found in my experience with diesels are corroded liners or bad head gasket. Use a radiator pressure tester at the radiator cap. If pressure is leaking away, and the is no visible coolant loss, you have to be concerned about a leak in the cylinder/combustion area pressurizing the coolant system. Keep us updated, Bruce

Jim B
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Re: JD 450C radiator issues

Post by Jim B » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:45 am

Some things to look at.

A stuck thermostat would likely show over heating, if you gauge is working right, before the coolant was pushed out. Check with a temp gun or thermometer. The radiator could have restricted flow internally causing it to push coolant out. A leak on the lower radiator hose might allow air to be pulled in at times which could push coolant out. Those would likely be the least expensive to fix.

Some other things it could be, and are more likely causes, are O-rings on a liner, bad liner, head gasket, or a cracked head leaking compression into the cooling system. Do you have, or can you get, a radiator pressure tester? Fill the radiator and pressure it up to spec or a couple pounds over and let it set to see if the pressure drops. If you don't have any external leaks show up and the pressure drops it would be internal of the engine. Have you carefully backed the engine oil drain plug out drained to engine oil after it has been setting, at least overnight, to see if you get any coolant as you start to get liquid out around the plug? You can drain the engine oil completely out then put a clean pan under the drain, with the plug out, while the pressure test is on the radiator to see if any coolant shows up then. Give it time, you may not see immediate results. If you see coolant come out the drain then you can drop the pans and look into the engine to see if it is coming around a liner or around a piston, if you want. But at that point I would say you are headed for a rebuild. If you end up going into the engine have the radiator checked, reconditioned or replace it.

You can remove the thermostat and fill the engine to the level of the thermostat (or put the thermostat housing and hose back together without the thermostat) and fill the radiator. Remove the fan belt so the water pump doesn't turn. Start it up and look for bubbles. You will have some thermal expansion but bubbles would indicate a compression leak into the cooling system.

atbrdly
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Re: JD 450C radiator issues

Post by atbrdly » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:14 am

Yes I have access to a pressure gauge and am going to use it tonight. I will let you know the outcome. I was told to put it on the radiator while operating and see if it builds up pressure while operating. Does this sound right? I will also put it on the radiator and pump the pressure up to see if it holds. Thanks all for the help!

what would normal operating pressure be 7 lbs?

Jim B
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Re: JD 450C radiator issues

Post by Jim B » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:01 pm

From info I find the cap (AT165587 sub for AR27868) is supposed to be 7 lbs. The allowable range is 6-1/4 to 7-1/2 lbs. for a 450B and about the same for my 450E.

You can put the tester on and run it but remember to watch it as the cap is the relief valve. The tester won't relieve, you could blow something if it builds to high. My John Deere manual says to limit the pressure the tester is pumped up to 10 psi. Another test the manual suggested, and I forgot about, is to hook a hose to the over flow tube from the radiator and submerge the end of the hose in a partially filled clear jar. Fill the radiator to the top and install the cap. Run the engine and watch the jar. Air bubbles, seen in the jar coming from the hose, should pretty much clear up as the engine warms and the coolant expands filling and coming out the overflow. If bubbles continue to come along with coolant that is another indicator of an internal issue. If clear coolant comes out that should be just expansion and should stop once it equalizes the level to match the cap pressure.

If you don't have the manuals you should get a set for your machine. I bought and downloaded mine from John Deere. You can find some used ones on eBay. The John Deere parts manuals are available to view at no charge on line at John Deere Parts Homepage.
HTH, Jim

atbrdly
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Re: JD 450C radiator issues

Post by atbrdly » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:53 pm

so here are the results from testing this evening.

My brother had gotten a pump up pressure gauge from a bus mechanic at the school he works at. Something must have been broken in the pump because it would not pump up pressure so we attached it and ran the machine.

after running the machine at mid idle for 10-15 minutes the pressure showed 4 psi. the fan was blowing warm air out the radiator and the engine block was warm.

next we decided to operate the dozer. after about 30 minutes of operating at mid idle the pressure got up to around 7 psi. we couldn't get it to go any higher so we quit.

After shutting off the engine we left the pressure gauge on the radiator and it maintained 7 psi for several minutes (approximately 10 min) before falling.

No loss of fluid was noted anywhere from hoses to radiator.

Could it be simply a bad radiator cap? the cap is a 7 psi cap which is what is spec'd.

Side note - when I took the pressure gauge off the radiator and while looking into the radiator I saw a larger piece of metal float by the opening.....

B Town
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Re: JD 450C radiator issues

Post by B Town » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:28 pm

It could be a bad cap. If your pressure tester was working properly, there is an attachment to check the pop-off pressure of the cap. Buy a new cap? In the morning, before cranking or starting, crack open the oil pan plug. The first few drops will tell a big story, as one of the prior posters suggested. Good luck, Bruce

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Re: JD 450C radiator issues

Post by Jim B » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:20 pm

It was good it only went to 7 psi.

You noted in your first post that the previous owner said he had installed several caps to no avail. Not all parts store interchanges are right, you may need to get a John Deere cap to get the right length. It is possible the length of the replacement caps have been too short and the seal is not being made at the bottom of the neck. Measure the depth of the neck and compare that to the cap, top seal to bottom seal. The cap should be the same or a bit longer than the depth of the radiator neck so is fully tightened down the top seal is compressed and it has some spring tension to make the lower seal and hold the pressure.

Crack the drain plug and check there as well after it sets at least over night. Loosen it carefully and watch the first liquid that comes out. Usually if there is water there you will see droplets before the plug is fully out of the threads.

Hope it is just the cap.
Jim

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gregjo1948
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Re: JD 450C radiator issues

Post by gregjo1948 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:31 am

Have you tried running with the cap loose or without a thermostat?
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Re: JD 450C radiator issues

Post by DrLoch » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:15 am

Could the large piece of metal been a piece of plastic? When I replaced my water pump because of a bad bearing I noticed that my impeller was made of plastic. WHen the bearing went bad fan hit radiator and shroud which trashed the fan of course but it also broke off all the impeller blades.

You may want to pull the water pump and see it the impeller is intact.
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amos
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Re: JD 450C radiator issues

Post by amos » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:40 am

That piece of metal could have been the foil seal from a jug of anti-freeze(especially since it was floating).On radiator caps: after a few bad "replacement" caps from parts stores I went back to using OEM only from a dealer. Cost more but the dang things fit and function correctly 100% of the time.Pretty common failure point too as some are decades old and all things wear out eventually. Just finished a dozer,2 backhoes and 2 tractors and all 5 had bad radiator caps and did a 350B crawler loader I bought last year.
So why do previous owners run with bad caps and have to constantly add coolant? Usually because either they don't know what they are doing or add water instead of coolant and don't care.
Amos
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atbrdly
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Re: JD 450C radiator issues

Post by atbrdly » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:48 pm

Okay..so I ran several tests and here are my observations.

I got a new radiator cap from Deere. The cap spring was approximately 3/4 inch longer than the one I had on previously (auto parts of the shelf cap).(I thought for sure that was the issue) I put it on and it was extremely hard to get on. (as previously stated the neck has been soldered on and there is some solder buildup that doesn't help). I finally got it on and sure enough after operating it for a few minutes it started spilling out.

I checked the oil drain plug after letting it sit for 24 hours....I also had my brother crawl under as well so I had two sets of eyes on it. I removed the drain plug slowly and we didn't see any water/coolant, it was straight oil.

I rented a pressure tester from autozone and pumped it up to 15 psi.....it didn't hold...I noticed leakage from the bottom of the radiator...so I cant check whether it is internal or not. I guess I will replace the radiator.

I ran the dozer again for about a half hour at mid idle and the pressure gradually rose to about 7 psi but nothing higher.

I still have a sneaking suspicion it is the head gasket. Any thoughts?

Anyone know where the best place to buy a radiator at? I got a price for a aftermarket shipped for 1300. Deere wants 1600.

thanks for the help!

Jim B
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Re: JD 450C radiator issues

Post by Jim B » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:46 pm

Have you got a local radiator shop you have used? If not check with some local contractors and see if they have someone they recommend. I would have it checked and get an estimate before I just write it off to getting a replacement. A good shop should be able to re-core it if the tanks are good and they usually can get complete replacements. When you ran your engine up to the 7 psi was it leaking at the bottom, I don't believe you can be sure of anything until that is fixed.

As far as your pressure test, I don't know what instructions the AutoZone tester had with it but the info I have would indicate 15 psi is way too much for a 7 psi radiator. My Stant tester Doesn't have psi on the gauge but the pressure to test a 7 psi radiator at is less than the test for a 10 psi cap. The radiator test section of my 450E (7psi cap) manual says do not exceed 10 psi or the radiator can be damaged. Please be careful with your test pressures.

Another question, just because I need to ask. When you filled your radiator did you fill it to the very top? The question may be out of place and you may have allowed for this; but expansion will push coolant out as the system builds to 7 psi. It is not uncommon for these radiators to be a couple inches below the neck when cold. They don't have an expansion tank, like most cars and trucks do now, which will usually have a full tank when you take the cap off cold.

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amos
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Re: JD 450C radiator issues

Post by amos » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:24 am

To get the radiator out the bullnose has to come off.You'll also need to unbolt and move the hyd pump a bit(makes removing radiator easier and it's just 2 bolts).
If you have a radiator shop you TRUST then rebuild is an option. If you don't have a trustworthy shop I would consider the new radiator option just because getting the radiator out is such a chore.
If you do pull the bullnose and radiator you now have easy access to the front of the engine. replace every single rubber hose you see there. Pressure wash the front of the engine and address any oil leaks. Install a new belt.Check steel lines for corrosion and clean and paint those as well.
Radiator mounts will be disintegrated so be sure to replace those with new as well.
If it were me I would rebuild or replace the water pump as well.
Kicker is bullnose off and radiator out of the way: with that what I listed is sooooo easy: bullnose and radiator in place and it's a bear.
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

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amos
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Re: JD 450C radiator issues

Post by amos » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:24 am

atbrdly wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:31 am
Hello,

I am a new owner of a JD 450 C. I am having an issue with the radiator spitting out coolant from the overflow hole in the neck of the radiator. It starts spitting out as it gets up to operating temperature. It doesn't seem to overheat until it looses enough coolant. The previous owner said he replaced the cap several times to no avail. Could someone help me with troubleshooting and finding out what the problem is? I checked the oil and there is no water/coolant in the oil. I don't notice any oil in the coolant either....any help would be appreciated.

BTW - The radiator itself looks worn out. the fins on it looks as if they have rusted and rotted. (I know that doesn't mean the internal is bad) I'm sure the radiator could use replacing (original 81 model) but I can't afford to put a new radiator in and that not be the problem.
Just re-read your original post and noticed that in the BTW section you indicated the fins are rusted and rotted. I build HVAC coils for a living(own the joint) and been in that game for 43 years. A radiator is just a variant of a heat exchanger and without exception,any heat exchanger losing fins via corrosion need to be replaced as the tubes will fail shortly thereafter.
Additionally, by design the tubes provide approximately 60% to 70% of the heat transfer surface and the fins the balance of 30% to 40%. Losing fins will greatly reduce heat transfer ability.
boisdarccoils.com (don't build radiators though).
Amos
Pushin hard or diggin deep life is good.
What's ahead is what matters. What's behind is already done.
A fool of a man is he who doesn't ask questions...
God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason...

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