Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

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JamesandDawn
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by JamesandDawn » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:00 pm

Stan Disbrow wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:28 am
Hi,

Bleeders are on top of the housing, one for each filter. Good point about loosening the fuel cap. And having the tank full. Helps bleeding even when all is A-OK.

As far as the gaskets go, whichever fits right. It has to seal the filter and not block anything. Kind of hard to say anything more without being there. I am unsure why you have different sizes.

At this point, I would pull both filters off and stick a can under #1 and work the primer. Watch what comes out the hole and see if it is clear or not. Then, put #1 on by itself and see how that goes. Ought to fill up and fuel come out inlet hole for #2. Then put #2 filter on and loosen the #2 bleeder and see what happens. If that didn't work, I would pull the outlet line. In other words, follow the fuel path.

Stan
Okay- did that today. The fuel spurts out of the fuel pump when I crank over the engine. The glass bowl fills quickly and then nothing. Meaning, the pressure builds so much in filter one glass bowl that when its unscrewed it SPRAYS out as if it's under pressure - and th engine is obviously not running. The filter will not fill or come out the top of bleeder screw.

There were 3 gaskets to choose from in the napa box. We picked the one that fit best and most represented visually the look of the one being replaced.

I have a video of what I did, but don't know how to post a video here. It's 12 seconds long.

Thanks everyone . Any idea how long a filter will fill up and come out the top, the mechanic was very surprised it and completely baffled it just simply didn't flow out. I'm thinking about removing the gasket at The top to see if it will at least flow through.......???????
James & Dawn Minenna
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bennyt
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by bennyt » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:48 pm

It still sounds like you have a seal in the top of the element blocking fuel flow. Try removing the element and look in the top of it right at the outer edge for a gasket in there. You should be able to see holes all around the edge of the element and a gasket out of place there will close off those holes stopping flow of fuel, therefore filter will not fill up.
.

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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jim B » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:22 am

To address fuel flow direction: I have a 2030 wheel tractor with the single filter of that Roosa-master type housing. I checked and it has the same part numbers for the center bolt (screw), filter, bowl and small parts, just a single head. I just changed the fuel filter to check the flow through it. The fuel from the transfer pump enters the filter in the center of the head via the ported bolt that holds the filter assembly together. Fuel runs down the center opening of the filter and fills from the bottom (glass bowl) up through the filter. There was no fuel on top of the filter until it was full from the bottom up. The bleeder port and the outlet to the injection pump are both in the chamber at the top of the filter, so fuel goes through the filter from the center to the outside where it discharges up through the slots around the outer can of the filter to the top chamber where the outlet and bleeder are. I believe the flow route is the same for the dual filter housing. Wix, NAPA and some others have these slots which get blocked if someone puts a seal gasket in the slot around the inside of the filter element top, some filter brands have holes in the top of the filter can which would not be as likely to be blocked. This is what I found on the one I could look at.

I still have to believe you have installed a gasket seal around the rim inside the filter can blocking the outlet slots of the filter which are located around the outside. The shape of the filter's top head, and the extra gasket included with the filter, could lead one to assume a seal should be placed in that area. Putting a gasket in that inner groove seals the outlet of the filter which would cause pressure to build in the glass bowl and prevent fuel from filling the top chamber, the symptoms you describe. This would be why the bleeder screw and out going fuel line stay dry. If you put the extra seal inside both filters the same condition will apply to the second filter. Pull both filters and check to see if there are any seals inside the outside circumference of the filter where the slots are. If there, are remove them. You should have a new O-ring on the center post the filter slides up over, a seal gasket in the groove, in the housing, the rim of the filter goes into, and a seal gasket around the bottom of the filter where it seals to the glass/metal bowl. Throw the extra one away.

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DrLoch
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by DrLoch » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:46 am

You say that you are cranking the motor over, doesn't your lift pump have a lever on it so you can hand pump the lift pump. Your next problem is going to be a starter at this rate.
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Jim B
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jim B » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:03 am

Also you can see a parts breakdown in the catalogs available at JDParts Homepage. As I noted in an earlier post I can't find the filter set up you have on in the 350C parts catalog, that filter arrangement shows up on the straight 350's and the earlier serial number 350B's catalogs. If you post your serial number so someone can check it as to model and year? I'm not saying it can't be that filter setup on a C model but having the right info may affect getting the right parts you might need in the future. Keep us post on what you find.

JamesandDawn
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by JamesandDawn » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:05 pm

DrLoch wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:46 am
You say that you are cranking the motor over, doesn't your lift pump have a lever on it so you can hand pump the lift pump. Your next problem is going to be a starter at this rate.
That's so accurate. We were trouble shooting what you noted about the lifter pump. It shoots diesel under mechanical pressure, but we think we may have a problem with manual pump. Having said that. Under mechanical pressure we still can't get fuel past filter #1.

WE have reversed the glass bowl and the shaft that holds each one in place , just to make sure we haven't inadvertently made a simple shaft error.

So, a friend who does heavy equipment work on his own equipment says he thinks the filters should have holes at the top. but its run for 4 years on those filters with no holes.... he helped for 2 more hours and said "well, this is bulls...'" so, i felt better not being alone in this confusion.

I will look up the serial #. thank you!!!!
James & Dawn Minenna
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JamesandDawn
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by JamesandDawn » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:07 pm

Jim B wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:22 am
To address fuel flow direction: I have a 2030 wheel tractor with the single filter of that Roosa-master type housing. I checked and it has the same part numbers for the center bolt (screw), filter, bowl and small parts, just a single head. I just changed the fuel filter to check the flow through it. The fuel from the transfer pump enters the filter in the center of the head via the ported bolt that holds the filter assembly together. Fuel runs down the center opening of the filter and fills from the bottom (glass bowl) up through the filter. There was no fuel on top of the filter until it was full from the bottom up. The bleeder port and the outlet to the injection pump are both in the chamber at the top of the filter, so fuel goes through the filter from the center to the outside where it discharges up through the slots around the outer can of the filter to the top chamber where the outlet and bleeder are. I believe the flow route is the same for the dual filter housing. Wix, NAPA and some others have these slots which get blocked if someone puts a seal gasket in the slot around the inside of the filter element top, some filter brands have holes in the top of the filter can which would not be as likely to be blocked. This is what I found on the one I could look at.

I still have to believe you have installed a gasket seal around the rim inside the filter can blocking the outlet slots of the filter which are located around the outside. The shape of the filter's top head, and the extra gasket included with the filter, could lead one to assume a seal should be placed in that area. Putting a gasket in that inner groove seals the outlet of the filter which would cause pressure to build in the glass bowl and prevent fuel from filling the top chamber, the symptoms you describe. This would be why the bleeder screw and out going fuel line stay dry. If you put the extra seal inside both filters the same condition will apply to the second filter. Pull both filters and check to see if there are any seals inside the outside circumference of the filter where the slots are. If there, are remove them. You should have a new O-ring on the center post the filter slides up over, a seal gasket in the groove, in the housing, the rim of the filter goes into, and a seal gasket around the bottom of the filter where it seals to the glass/metal bowl. Throw the extra one away.

I'll posta pic of what the old ones look like and what we are replacing with...
James & Dawn Minenna
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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:39 am

Hi,

Well, I mis-recalled just how the fuel flows thru this style of filter. Down the center, to the bowl, then up thru the element. There has to be a hole in the top of the housing, probably right near the bleed screw, and that is blocked on number one. If air is not able to pass into the passage, it won't come out the bleed screw. Then, it will pressurize. And, if air can't pass, fuel has zero chance.

You are going to have to dig at the housing and find out what is blocking the passage. My guess is there is an extra, probably old, gasket stuffed up in there. Or part of a disintegrated one.

I bet your manual pump lever is working fine. It hasn't the same force as when the engine drives the pump. I suspect once you clear the blockage, you will be able to bleed it just fine with the lever.

I also bet you don't really have a 350C. I have an early production 350C and it has the single square canister fuel filter. The double kind was changed over to the square in the late 1960s. It is common for 350 and 450 machines to gain decals with the letter C over time as those are easy to get. Couple that with the fact that the earlier models of crawlers always used the letter C to mean Crawler, and we get a lot of Straight and B models becoming a C....

Not that it matters for this problem, but a lot of parts on a C are not the same as for the Straight and the B....

Stan
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Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jim B » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:53 am

Hi Stan,

I don't think there is a plug in the housing. On the housing for the single filter on my 2030 the outlet for the fuel to the injection pump and the bleeder screw are in the same chamber, basically the whole area at the top of the filter element. They are completely separate ports, about 90 degrees apart, visible when the filter is off. If you plug the outlet, the bleeder still works. As long as fuel gets to the top of the element both the bleeder and outlet see filtered fuel at the same time. I expect the two filter housing is the same from the location of the bleeder screws and the outlet from the second filter in their photo, and memory. NAPA and Wix filters have slots around the outer circumference of the element for the fuel to come up through, not holes in the top like some others. They also have a recess, around the circumference, that the slots are in. The recess looks like it should have a gasket in it, but it should not. After studying my filter arrangement, with it apart, a gasket in that recess will seal of the filter element outlet slots and will stop fuel from reaching both the bleeder and outlet. I still have to believe the gasket is inside the element covering the slots, not up in the groove of the housing it belongs in. I like to use a little grease to hold the gasket up in the groove of the housing, so it doesn't slip down inside the filter during installation and cause a problem. In re-reading everything from the beginning their post on 8/23, where they asked you about smaller gaskets, reads like they were fitting the gasket inside the lip of the filter, not up into the housing head.

Jim

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:37 am

Hi,

While I mis-recalled just how the fuel flows thru these, I know that the fuel has to pass up thru filter #1 and thru a passage to the center of filter #2. The bleeder is right where that passage is. Then, it flows down the center and up thru the filter and to the top of #2. Then, past the second bleeder screw and out to the IP.

It obviously is not getting to the first bleeder. So, it isn't getting into #2 either. It makes it down to the bowl, and starts upwards, and then stops. The blockage has to be at the top of the filter somewhere.

I had the dual element unit on my 68 Straight 350 and on a 1520 wheel tractor. My 2008 5103 has a single unit like you describe. I can no longer recall just what the dual unit looked like up inside.

I agree with you, though. Upon re-reading the entire thread, I suspect a small gasket has been installed such that it covers up the outlet slots of the filter element.....

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

JamesandDawn
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*SOLVED* Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by JamesandDawn » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:31 am

SOLVED

So, We found out that this is a straight 350 not a 350c. That helped the John Deere local parts fella help a friend of ours locate the real parts #'s for the 350.

Using GENUINE John Deere parts resulted in finding fuel filters with holes on the top- which is what everyone on on here - and what we thought could be the ONLY problem.

Additionally the rods that hold the fuel filters in were different on the physical tractor but the parts # is the same in the book. So, purchased identical rods.

Installed - primed and viola - RUNS like a champ!

BUT here is the CRAZY part. This has been running for 4 years using the napa Fuel filters with NO HOLES on the top!! So, how was it running?? Ghosts in the machine!

Thanks everyone - along the way - and reading all through the various posts I sure learned alot about my rig! Thank you, Dawn.
James & Dawn Minenna
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Jim B
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jim B » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:43 pm

Great your machine is up and running, hopefully for a long time. Like you I wonder why it ran for several years with the NAPA filters and then couldn't. I run those NAPA/Wix filters with no problems. When you pulled the NAPA filters down did they look like this?
Image

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Stan Disbrow » Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:47 am

Hi,

Glad you got it going!

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

bennyt
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by bennyt » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:35 am

if you will take an o ring pick and dig that gasket out of the top of that filter it will work.

Jim B
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Re: Fuel wont Bleed after Fuel Filter replacement

Post by Jim B » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:05 am

Agreed. I have to believe a seal inadvertently slipped into the groove when the filter went on and that was the problem. Nothing else makes sense of the issue. Like wise the filters with holes in the top should not have a seal in that area and could leak if they do. Not trying to pick on anyone, just looking for the real cause. Has to be something other than whether or not the filter top has holes in it, as the NAPA filters that were on it worked for several years they said.

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