Advice on 450c complete rebuild

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atbrdly
40C crawler
40C crawler
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Location: Southern Ohio

Advice on 450c complete rebuild

Post by atbrdly » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:18 pm

Hello all,

I need some advice. I took my john deere 450c dozer over to my mechanic for a coolant in the oil issue and the final drives were filling up with fluid.

he started with the engine.....the entire block needs replaced its ate up.

Also, he measured the track wear and its at 120% worn.

I need some advice.....do I sink a ton of money in a new engine block, new tracks, fix the seals in the final drive, etc ? or do I find a used engine block, slap it in and run the dozer for as long as it holds up and forget the rest of the problems for now? I paid a total of 6000 dollars for the dozer. I use the dozer on the family farm. if we didn't have a dozer on the farm we would hire all the work out.

Could you also point me in the direction of places to purchase refurbed or aftermarket engine blocks and new tracks for the machine?

Thanks for any advice you all would give.

dtoots1
350 crawler
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Location: akron, ohio

Re: Advice on 450c complete rebuild

Post by dtoots1 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:26 pm

try this..
craiglist pgh https://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/hvo/d ... 75312.html
https://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/hvo/d ... 75312.html



EDIT 12/10/18
When i added above to the post it was active....twas a jd450 in pgh area fella wanted to sell or give away to get to get out of his garage...think engine was tore down and he never got time to fix..shoulda kept dang phone number
EDIT 12/11/18
ok was able to track down phone number and info below is what was posted ...it may well be gone now...but phone number is 412-779-6634

Hello, I have a jd 450 track loader. Motor is junk. Tired of it sitting in my shop. Make an offer or possibly a trade for snow plows salt boxes really anything. I know what it's worth In scrap. Any questions feel free to ask. Would be good for parts. I can help load.
Last edited by dtoots1 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:42 am, edited 4 times in total.

atbrdly
40C crawler
40C crawler
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:36 am
Location: Southern Ohio

Re: Advice on 450c complete rebuild

Post by atbrdly » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:34 pm

For some reason that link didn't work. what did you search and I will search it. thanks!

Jim B
350 crawler
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Re: Advice on 450c complete rebuild

Post by Jim B » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:44 pm

First question. What do you mean by the block is ate up? Was the coolant leak found? Those engines, and parts for them, should be readily available, regardless of what you need from just a block to a complete engine.

A lot of folks run tracks that are 120% worn or more, I'm sure the tracks on mine are that much and one of these days it will get an undercarriage but for now they stay on and work fine for my use. If you weren't having issues with them, you can likely get by a while longer so you can plan, shop, and budget for an undercarriage overhaul.

As for your final drives filling up. I think you posted some about a final overfilling a while back, it sounded like you were draining it off regularly then. Are you having any steering issues? If not, you can likely just replace the seals between the final and steering clutch compartment and be fine for a time. It would be pretty easy when the final is off to replace the seal at the steering clutch compartment; to check the bearings and re-seal that final as well. Ideally you should go through the steering/brakes and finals while you're that far into it. If you don’t do anything to the steering clutches or brakes while you’re that far in, the risk is if you have a steering problem you will be back in there to fix it.

You could spend as much or more to purchase another dozer as you will to fix this one, and it may have some of the same issues. It comes down to: Do you want to have a dozer or hire that work out? JMHO.

B Town
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Re: Advice on 450c complete rebuild

Post by B Town » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:06 pm

I’m with Jim on the block. What is ate up so badly that makes it un-rebuildable? Short of a catastrophic failure, diesel blocks have enormous rebuild potential.

Rebuild your dozer if you are in it for the long run. If you just need it moving, locate and place a used engine.

I live on a small cow-calf farm and see the value of having heavy equipment readily available. I chose to rebuild a similar 450C with loader. Have you every tried to hire someone in the business to come over to do a small job? We can talk about the hassles involved if you like. And it seems saving up several small jobs to make it worth their time doesn’t work much better around here.

Best regards, Bruce

atbrdly
40C crawler
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Location: Southern Ohio

Re: Advice on 450c complete rebuild

Post by atbrdly » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:35 pm

So the mechanic removed the block and pulled the pistons. The sleeves were all ate up and pitted on one of the pistons. He then inspected the inside of the block and it had wear and pitting on the inside of the block on one of the cylinder walls. Yes,the coolant was leaking from sleeves/internally. Does that help explain the "ate up" comment? Basically it's worn so much that its damaged the non wearing block itself.

Is the block itself repairable?
Last edited by atbrdly on Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

atbrdly
40C crawler
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Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:36 am
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Re: Advice on 450c complete rebuild

Post by atbrdly » Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:25 pm

Jim and bruce, thanks for the advice. I agree having the dozer is invaluable so I guess that answers my question.

Jim B
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Re: Advice on 450c complete rebuild

Post by Jim B » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:10 pm

I take that to mean a sealing area(s), for at least one of the sleeves, in the block is bad. There are places that can repair a lot of things, whether the cost makes sense compared to other options is the question. Your mechanic may know of specialty engine shops in your area that might do the repair, then you could get an estimate. There are many places that part out equipment that may have an good used engine or a good block. There are many places advertising rebuilt/remanufactured blocks and engines, short and long blocks, some complete engines. It just takes some legwork to find them. I believe your engine is turbocharged and if so you should find another turbocharged engine if you decide to get a complete one. If you get a block, it needs to be able to be built for a turbocharger. There are some internal differences between turbocharged and naturally aspirated, even if they are 4-219 engine. (You should have a small oil cooler located under your oil filter, at least check/test that if you reuse it; as it is a way for coolant to get into the oil as well.) Have your engine tag numbers and block casting numbers handy as well as your crawler serial number.

As Bruce said if you just want it going find a running engine and put in it, then carry on as you were before, knowing some day you will need to do major drive train and undercarriage work. There are many sources for aftermarket undercarriage parts. SALT (Sealed And Lubricated Tracks) tracks with the split master links are the best way to go in my opinion. Rebuild it right now, and you should go a long time with no issues. And the big plus is you will know what you have.

Send Lavoy an email (postmaster@jdcrawlers.com), he may have some thoughts or know of a block/engine; as well as undercarriage parts.

Good luck, Jim

B Town
350 crawler
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Location: Western Iowa

Re: Advice on 450c complete rebuild

Post by B Town » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:53 pm

It sounds like your engine had a very poor maintenance cycle. This leads to sediment in the cooling system, couple that with fluid cavitation and you end up corrosion in the liners and block. Thank you for expanding on the mechanic’s findings. Repair vs replace.?? Best regards, Bruce

Cle Elum John
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Re: Advice on 450c complete rebuild

Post by Cle Elum John » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:07 pm

After having done a couple of frame off auto rebuilds I will offer some very, very general advice.
Find the best car (dozer) to start with and pay for it. No rust, no damage, COMPLETE, not modified, and reasonably well maintained. Start with good quality up front. It will more than pay for itself. Maybe you can use the dozer you already own for parts.
This may not be completely obvious until you are finished. Choose the vehicle based on its value after the rebuild. As a car example, if you have a choice between a sedan and a convertible, go with the convertible. In the case of a dozer, maybe something other than a 450c will better suit your needs and have better resale. Smaller, larger, loader bucket, dozer blade what ever. Now is the time to make the decision.

If the car, or in your case the dozer, has sentimental value that brings different decisions. I am not questioning your choices, just trying to help you make good choices based on my experience making very questionable ones.
Reporting from the Peoples Republic of Washington State.

dtoots1
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Location: akron, ohio

Re: Advice on 450c complete rebuild

Post by dtoots1 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:05 pm

just to get this back on top
for info to ATBRDLY!!!!!!!

see edit in my first post above

ctjim
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Re: Advice on 450c complete rebuild

Post by ctjim » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:50 pm

I have a 1977 John Deere 450C dozer with 6 way blade that I bought in 2012 for $8,000.

A few things I did was replace the starter (starter quit shortly after I bought it) and did a complete service replacing fuel filter, oil and oil filter, air filter, radiator coolant check, hydraulic fluid level, adjusted the tracks, replaced the right side steering brake linkage.

The engine was replaced by the previous owner (that's a story in itself) I replaced the hydraulic hoses and replaced the steel hydraulic lines under the seat with hoses instead of the steel lines.

I am replacing the track adjuster relief valves and lubrication fitting on both the left and right side tracks.

I had gotten an estimate to replace 2 bottom rollers that are seized on the left track and also wanted to get an idea what a complete undercarriage would cost, to replace the rollers, the cost would be $1,800, to do a complete undercarriage the cost would be close to $7,500.

The fella that quoted me these prices is a John Deere advisor and his job is to give customers an idea what specific mechanical services will cost. He works on a commission basis, plus I know the guy.

He advised me not to replace the 2 siezed rollers and not spend the money on a new undercarriage because it's a 41 year old machine. The end result is I could easily spend $16,500 to fix the tracks, fix a blown transmission, replace hydraulic pump, replace the clutch, steering brakes, etc, etc, etc.

Unless you plan on restoring the dozer to show room condition (if you've won the lottery) don't spend a great deal of money of it. Set a budget, decide "why I need a dozer" (in my case I use it to maintain horse trails on my farm and push up the horse manure every couple of months. You may be better off to cut your losses now and look around for something in better shape. At the very least you may want to visit your local John Deere dealer and they may know someone that is getting ready to unload an older machine. I hope this post helps you, ask yourself why you need a dozer. I may unload mine after 2019 before it becomes a "lawn ornament".

atbrdly
40C crawler
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Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:36 am
Location: Southern Ohio

Re: Advice on 450c complete rebuild

Post by atbrdly » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:04 pm

I am looking at overhaul kits and I need to know if its standard compression or high compression. how do you know this? is a turbo charged high and a non turbo charged standard? any help with figuring this out would be appreciated. Thanks for all the advice so far.

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