steering not working

[flyboy_40461]

I have a later model 450B dozer. Last summer I burst the high pressure hydraulic line from pump to controller inside the belly pan. I couldn't raise blade but backed the dozer to a location near my shop for repair. Steering was working great both sides. I removed the belly pan replaced the main high pressure line reinstalled belly pan now my steering levers don't do anything..The steering worked for about 5 minutes after I got it going again, now the levers feel like they are disconnected, no reaction at all when pulled either side.

Looking at power steering cylinders under the seat shows the steering lever movement also moves the linkage on both sides.. I'm guessing somehow air has got in something somewhere but I'm lost on what to bleed or where to bleed it. Hyd pump is working fine, blade is working good in all 6 ways. The steering has nothing to do with the main hydraulics to blade does it? As I said when I parked the machine to replace the busted hose above the belly pan the steering was working fine. I can understand if 1 side quit then something broke or came loose, but both sides don't make sense.

Suggestions??

[jsal]

the steering gets oil from the reverser i believe not the main pump check your trans fluid


JIM S

[Jim B]

I believe at least some of the 450B's had a separate pump, with reservoir similar to a car PS pump, mounted on and gear driven from the engine. Check that reservoir as the steering was its own hydraulic system. You may need to check the hydraulic pressure. Do you have the Technical Manual TM1033 for your 450B? It has info on your steering system.

Jim B

[Labparamour]

I have a 450B, too.
Have you adjusted the steering clutches and brakes per Deere manual?

I may be wrong but, I believe the power steering cylinders only “assist” with moving the linkage- so you don’t have to pull as hard.
Even with engine off, you should be able to pull handles and move linkage.

Adjust steering and make sure you can see things moving behind the top and side cover for clutch and brakes.

Darryl

[flyboy_40461]

the steering gets oil from the reverser i believe not the main pump check your trans fluid


JIM S

I have a 450B, too.
Have you adjusted the steering clutches and brakes per Deere manual?

I may be wrong but, I believe the power steering cylinders only “assist” with moving the linkage- so you don’t have to pull as hard.
Even with engine off, you should be able to pull handles and move linkage.

Adjust steering and make sure you can see things moving behind the top and side cover for clutch and brakes.

Darryl
[/quote Jim my trans oil is on full mark. Do all 450B s have a independent oil pump or do the later machines get pressure from trans pump?.. my machine moves foward and reverse fine, blade lifts normal. I removed the plate over the steering clutch on left side to make sure the linkage bolt wasn't broken. It was okay. Pulling the steering lever moves the linkage. I felt for a pump on front of motor but didn't feel anything that I'd imagine as a pump. I wish this had the independent reservoir. Books says later machines take fluid from filter but where does filter get it's pressure. This is just strange, both were working, first right side stopped working, 5 min later left stopped working, no drag or indication I even pulled the levers.

[Jim B]

Yours is apparently a later 450B since it doesn't have the separate pump and reservoir. Yours uses HLR transmission clutch oil from the circuit with the filter in it, that is why jsal said to check your transmission oil. That pump is inside the clutch housing bolted to the front of the HLR transmission. If you have the technical manual TM1033, look at the first couple pages of section 50-15, HLR general information. You will see the two HLR hydraulic systems shown, one with the separate power steering pump and the one that taps into the clutch oil filter line. Have you changed the clutch filter and cleaned the screen in the transmission to be sure those are not restricting oil flow? Is it possible a hose, to the filter or steering, got out of place and got pinched or kinked off during the repair of your hydraulic leak or putting the belly pan back up?

[flyboy_40461]

Thanks Jim I see the diagram on 15-2. That answers a lot of my questions. So to be clear, is the main pump, control valve one and the same? Is the valve something accessible without removing the transmission? I haven't tried to remove the trans top cover yet. The oil filter located beside the cooler doesn't appear to have much pressure when loosed a couple turns, engine 1500rpms. I plan to loosen the pressure line, inlet to cooler to see if it has much pressure, maybe a stopped up oil cooler is that very common on these machines? I figure the oil pump is okay, the machine moves fine forward and reverse. Just won't turn R or L! I removed the clutch/brake housing on left side and the linkage moves a little when lever is pulled but it doesn't move enough to release clutch disks or apply brake, should it?

I haven't had much luck finding someone local that works on small machines. I can still hear the laughter.. So I guess it's me-fix-it or it sets!

[Jim B]

Try to be specific in what you are describing. When you say main pump and control valve I am thinking, in this case, you mean the HLR transmission pump and the housing behind it with the valving shown in the 50-15-2 schematics. The HLR pump is not accessible without pulling the engine as it is inside the clutch housing. Some of the valves shown are accessible but don't touch them unless you diagnose the system. I don't see that removing the top cover of the transmission is going to do anything for this problem. Read and study the manual and the diagnostic sections, before tearing into things. If you decide to try something follow all the steps and have the tools required. Make notes of what you change and how much so you can return it to its previous setting.

Go back to the when the steering quit and review. Someone once said there are two causes of failures. First we didn't work on it when we should have or second we did work on it and got it wrong. You posted that your machine blew the high pressure hose, that runs in the belly pan area, between the main hydraulic pump (which is located under the radiator in front of the engine) and the blade control valve (which is located in the right arm rest console). You replaced that hose, then very shortly after lost steering. Is that correct?

We know the blade hydraulic system has nothing to do with steering, separate systems. Also since you say you do not have the separate power steering pump, yours is a later model and uses HLR oil for steering assist. You posted the HLR transmission seems to be working properly, so its pump must be working at some level. Does the transmission act the same as it did before the blown hose?

What changed/was touched besides the blown hose, as the steering oil comes from a different system.
How did you access the hose you replaced? Did you disconnect any hoses to gain access to the blown hose? If so could you have crossed a couple and reconnected them to the wrong points? If you disconnected any hoses did you stick anything into the ends to keep oil from dripping out while they were unhooked? I have known of people leaving bits of rags (they stuck in hoses as plugs) when the hoses were reconnected. Have you checked the areas you were in when replacing the blown hose to see that a hose didn't get pinched off during re-assembly.

Related to the transmission oil: Have you ever removed and cleaned, or changed the filter, in the transmission? If that has started to plug it could reduce oil flow. Have you changed the spin-on transmission filter?

Will it steer without the power assist? When did you last adjust, completely step by step, the steering and brakes per the manual? That might be a place to start after reviewing the blown hose replacement.

[Jim B]

You could add your general location to your profile. There might be someone closer than you think, if they knew about where you are located.

[flyboy_40461]

I'm near Berea, KY. Another set of eyes would be a great asset if someone who knows the old late model JD 450B machines is close enough I'd love to make contact. I admit I'm not a very good mechanic, OLD N SLOW, so any help/advise would be appreciated. My steering just stopped working slowly after removing belly pan to replace the 9ft high pressure blade pump line. I didn't remove any other lines and shinning a bright light inside the belly pan I don't see anything pinched. Running the motor @1500 all I see is slobbering oil loosing the oil filter in front of radiator. What oil filter is supposed to be used on the trans? I just replaced the old cruddy one with a regular oil filter from NAPA I think. but loosing the filter should produce high pressure spray but it doesn't.

[Jim B]

The spin on filter located behind the grill, in front of the radiator is a John Deere T19044 by the parts book. That crosses to A NAPA 1243 or a Wix 51243. There is no reason the right NAPA filter will not work, I have used those over the years. Is a NAPA 1243 the filter you have on it? By the way this same filter number is used for the engine oil, it is very common on JDs.

Your steering gets its oil from the transmission oil system that filter is in. It is not a "high" pressure system. The oil pressure should be less than 100 psi where the steering pulls its oil from. The steering pump is rated at 2.9 gallons per minute at 210 PSI running at 2400 engine rpm. Pump relief should be between 360 and 425PSI max. So if you have a leaking hose at the filter or the filter is wrong/leaking it very well could affect your steering and the transmission oil will be lost in time.

It helps to know if you have done any of the things suggested before. Have you cleaned or changed the filter (screen) in the transmission. If that plugs it can starve the transmission pump. Have you done that yet? You said you have the manual. Have you done a complete step by step adjustment, as laid out in the manual, of the steering clutches and brakes? Once that is done so you can rule linkage out, you may need to check the pump pressure as described in the manual.

Maybe someone close will see this and help you out as well.

[flyboy_40461]

Thank you Jim for the information . I think my machine is a 1979, serial 450BC 17 3098 6 way blade and PTO. I also can't find where to disengage the PTO no levers on the floor just that huge air filter can.

My manual JD-S-TM1033 doesn't show the filter numbers. I wasn't sure I had the correct filter, so yesterday I bypassed the filter with a 3/4 hose connector but that didn't help. BTW the fluid is full on the stick just dropping it in the hole not screwed down. The dozer responds to power shifts okay forward and backwards.

First thing I had planed to do if I can find some help, is drop the pan make sure something isn't pinched. Then drain the fluid, check clean the filter screen while the pan is off. My main issue is age and dizziness, crawling under the darn thing gives me the creeps.

I'm not sure where the steering pressure comes from. Book shows a line graph with a pump, drawing fluid from the filter line. I'm still confused, and my question is; where is the steering pump located on the later machines? I removed the hood and don't see or feel anything that resembles a pump below the alternator or Oil fill neck on the right front side of motor. Someone else said the steering pressure comes from the RNLH trans pump. Book doesn't say where on later models.

Any information is greatly appreciated

[Jim B]

The 450B production stopped in 1976 so yours wouldn’t be a 1979. Your serial number (450B C 173098) is for a 450B with a 6405 dozer (C), according to the parts catalog. Serial number 173098 makes it a 1974 machine, using the list of serial numbers on this site’s FAQ Board.

The service manuals do not list generally give you filter numbers. Those are found in the parts catalogs.

The power steering pump gets oil from the line that supplies oil from the filter to the clutch lube line. There are pictures of the pump in the manual. Section 60 page 5-3 and page 10-2 show it, they aren’t great, but they are there. The pump (does not have a reservoir) is on the radiator side of the engines front cover. Figure 3 on 60-10-2 shows it coming out. The engine oil filter shows in the picture to give you reference of where to look for the pump. I believe when they started using wet steering clutches somewhere in the late 450Bs, they deleted the engine driven pump and took oil direct from the HLR system. If it does that could be why you are not seeing a pump, and the oil flow will be different. Does yours have wet steering clutches?

You may need to remove some of the air cleaner assembly and the floor boards and look to see if the shaft for the PTO shifter is there. It may be the shifter handle has been removed. I’m not sure about the 450B, but many later letter series of 450s (with a power shaft for a winch) did not have a control lever, and were live all the time.