350 B winch on a 350

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scampr
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Re: 350 B winch on a 350

Post by scampr » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:52 pm

oh wow arch too.. I am jealous :P
scampr 440icd, 350B, 47 Farmall H, 55 Farmall cub and ashamed to have a Kabota too

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: 350 B winch on a 350

Post by Stan Disbrow » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:17 pm

Hi,

The 350 reverser has its own pump and filter as well. If that is out of commission, the machine would tow but not move on its own. There has to be reverser hydraulic pressure to move either forward or reverse. There is no main engine clutch. The clutch pedal just dumps hydraulic pressure in the reverser.

So there is one might-be-why it won't move on its own. Between the reverser output and trans input shafts is that coupler already mentioned. So, another might-be-why.

And, then there are the insides of the trans after that.

Once it can move, then whenever the reverser is engaged it spins the winch shaft. That drives the hydraulic pump inside the winch. Then the winch control valve sets it to spool out, brake or power in. This with the reverser in forward. If the reverser is in reverse, the winch shaft spins backward. Hence the need for a reverse in the trans for a winch equipped machine.

And, that trans reverse was left out at the factory for non-winch, non-PTO equipped machines. Additionally, a PTO equipped machine would have an in/out lever while a winch shaft machine would not have the lever.

As mentioned, you can't use the blade/bucket hydraulics to work the winch. Too much juice, as my Dad used to say.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

Jason37756
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Re: 350 B winch on a 350

Post by Jason37756 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:58 pm

I got the dozer today and unbolted the winch from it. Serial number 0164791... I think jim was asking. Also the filter is offset to the driver side and sets under the fuel tank nicely. Appears to align with mine perfectly. Spline shaft is a bit worn as well as the coupler.

Stan, I need to clarify something on my 350 about reverse. It is a 350 straight but does have reverse in the transmission, but I am not sure if you are talking about the dozer going backwards or just the pto/ winch drive going backwards??

I do have a lever on the bottom left side next to my foot to engage the pto, but am unsure if it goes backwards...I was thinking the spool valve had a free flo setting to release the winch.

Also you mentioned the clutch pedal. Interesting thing I noticed today, the clutch pedal has no resistance and doesn't spring back into position...it's always depressed. Previous owner said a spring broke, but this could be something to do with the reverser? I don't know.

Any insight?

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: 350 B winch on a 350

Post by Stan Disbrow » Wed May 01, 2019 4:36 am

Hi,

Ah. If the clutch pedal is always down, that is likely why it won't move. The reverser dump valve would always be open. Both the forward and reverse clutch packs need hydraulic pressure to make up.

If you have a PTO lever, that is OK. It is just an in/out gear for the shaft. You need the shorter winch drive shaft for a winch is all. It does require that the rear cover of the trans to be removed to swap it.

The part where the shaft spins backwards is due to the reverser. All it does is spin the input shaft one way or the other depending on where you set the reverser control lever. When the reverser is in reverse, then all the shafts the trans rotate backward. Including the winch or PTO shaft. You wouldn't want that when using whatever is hooked on the back end. So, they add a reverse gear into the trans so you can leave the reverser in forward and still back up.

As to why they made the machines like that, most of the machines were made for use without either PTO or winch. Think about the cost of the parts Deere saved by leaving them out. They were making machines for construction folks. Not loggers or farmers. Mostly built to fill an order. So, if a logger or farmer ordered one, then stick in the parts they wanted.

Of course formers bought these things used, then wanted the option. That would make my Dad grumble a little since the back end had to come apart to add the bits inside the trans. You have it easy. The trans part is there if it sports a reverse. All you need is to swap in the last shaft for a winch.
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

Jason37756
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Re: 350 B winch on a 350

Post by Jason37756 » Wed May 01, 2019 6:43 am

thanks for the info!

this is about what i figured and was hoping for. i am a pretty good mechanic, but have never worked with the reverser or winch before and wanted to ask some "baby" questions to ensure i was on the track.

i am thankful for folks like you and your dad for learning and sharing your knowledge.

thanks

Jason37756
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Re: 350 B winch on a 350

Post by Jason37756 » Wed May 01, 2019 8:13 pm

Update...

I'm on to the reverser now. The dozer will not move under its own power but can be towed.

When I place the reverser in reverse there is a squealing noise as i release the clutch and the engine begins to lug and will die if I leave it in reverse. If I place the reverser in forward the engine just lugs and will die if I leave it in forward. There is no difference in any gear the transmission is in or if the pto is in or out.

Thoughts?

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gregjo1948
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Re: 350 B winch on a 350

Post by gregjo1948 » Thu May 02, 2019 4:09 am

Sounds like a problem in the reverser. Not sure it's possible but, sounds like you're trying to engage the reverser into both directions at the same time. I don't think there's a position for neutral on a straight 350 but I think it was added on the 350B. See if you can move your reverser lever to a center position between forward and reverse. If you can, maybe the squealing and stalling will stop. I don't remember how the hydraulic fluid direction flow is controlled within the reverser to determine which direction the dozer will move but, I think that's where the problem might be. Stan will probably be able to explain how it works.
JD 350B diesel w/rops & 6way blade, Case 580B Loader/backhoe, Farmall 504 highcrop, International 404 utility, International 284 diesel w/belly mower, 1972 Ford F600 dump truck, Galion 3-5 roller

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: 350 B winch on a 350

Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu May 02, 2019 4:40 am

Hi,

In forward, the front clutch pack gets hyd pressure and makes up. Power passes thru the center shaft and out the back. Output shaft spins in the same direction as the input. Rear clutch pack is left released.

In reverse, the rear clutch pack gets hyd pressure and makes up. Power passes thru gears to the side shaft, thru more gears, and out the back. Output shaft spins backwards from the input shaft. Front clutch pack is left released.

In neutral, or when the clutch pedal is depressed, or when the machine is off, no hyd pressure to either clutch pack. Both shafts free.

Now, that side shaft, which the power passes thru for reverse, is always turning. The way the clutch packs are operated, this is fine. But if that shaft is locked up - maybe a busted tooth - you will load everything down with either clutch pack engaged. I bet the loading down and the noise comes from this.

The straight 350 and the 350B have dry steering clutches. So, they stay made up until you pull the lever. If the trans were locked you would get the same overloading trying the reverser. But. The thing wouldn't tow unless you pulled both steering levers.

I don't recall that a straight 350 didn't have a neutral position for the reverser. I think it did. But the straight 350 I had was not equipped with a reverser, so I don't know from experience. Mine was a farm special. Outside blade, no reverser, PTO and the ultra rare 3-pt hitch. And, that is the only straight 350 I ever used. The rest have been B and C machines.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

Jim B
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Re: 350 B winch on a 350

Post by Jim B » Thu May 02, 2019 4:42 am

Hi Jason,

Hopefully you come out of this with two running machines, without a lot of cost. Then you will have to decide if you keep one or both.

You may want to start a separate post for the 350B drive train issues, which I think your last post was about, or folks will be getting mixed up between your 350 and the 350B. Between the two projects there will be a lot of info that shouldn't be mixed together or it will be hard to keep straight. JMHO

Jim

Jason37756
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Re: 350 B winch on a 350

Post by Jason37756 » Thu May 02, 2019 6:40 am

to answer a few questions... i can move the reverser control handle from forward to neutral to reverse and noise and lug increase the further i move the handle...disappears as i move it back to neutral...lugs as i move it into forward, all of this occurs as i move the control handle between the settings, so yeah i can make the lug and noise come and go.

on my 350 straight i can disengage the pto and turn if freely by hand. on the 350 B it cannot be turned period...i wonder if this is a result of the problem or if this points to what the problem is. seems pretty far back to be a reverser.

i did not think a 350 straight ever had a reverser...if it did then it was a 350 B, but that is a side note.


thanks

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Re: 350 B winch on a 350

Post by Lavoy » Thu May 02, 2019 11:48 am

Both crawlers have or can have reversers. Straight crawler has a PTO disconnect lever, B does not.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
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Jason37756
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Re: 350 B winch on a 350

Post by Jason37756 » Thu May 02, 2019 12:03 pm

what type of success would one have in removing the reverser and converting it back to a pressure plate type set up?

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gregjo1948
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Re: 350 B winch on a 350

Post by gregjo1948 » Fri May 03, 2019 3:00 am

Jason37756 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:03 pm
what type of success would one have in removing the reverser and converting it back to a pressure plate type set up?
I think you'd have to get a different bellhousing, pressure plate, throughout bearing, clutch plate, and a shaft to get from the engine to the transmission. Possibly, Lavoy would have all the parts needed to convert from reverser to non reverser machine.
JD 350B diesel w/rops & 6way blade, Case 580B Loader/backhoe, Farmall 504 highcrop, International 404 utility, International 284 diesel w/belly mower, 1972 Ford F600 dump truck, Galion 3-5 roller

Jason37756
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Re: 350 B winch on a 350

Post by Jason37756 » Fri May 03, 2019 5:53 am

doesn't sound too bad considering i will be tearing it apart for repair anyway. i installed an engine from a 350 C into my 350 straight and had to replace some items to make it work. as long as there is nothing rear of the reverser and shaft it doesn't sound like much of a stretch. may have to plug off the power steering cylinders too.

seems to me the reverser is more trouble than it is worth. also seems like i could move the parts left over from the conversion.

thanks

dtoots1
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Re: 350 B winch on a 350

Post by dtoots1 » Fri May 03, 2019 9:09 am

jason,
where you at in tennessee? i will be down in crawford, tn to work on deceased sons house and property...mite stop by if close..i have jd440ic 6 way

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