450 PTO control/engagement lever - where is it?

[cordlesscarpenter]

Hey everyone!

For those who haven't seen any of my previous posts... I have a straight/plain 450 crawler loader (unsure of year due to serial number placard missing).

The machine came outfitted with a 3305 winch off of a 540A skidder which is operated by a manual lever (assumed to be rigged up by the previous owner since it isn't a stock 450 winch) along with a log arch. It also came with a tech manual but do not think it was the original so I'm not sure if it is for the correct series of straight 450s. I also picked up an operators manual and parts manual for the machine off of eBay which I'm not positive those are the correct ones either (no serial number and not knowing the year/model series is a real pain for parts). All the manuals are for a straight 450 but since there is a split somewhere in the 450 model, it leaves me unsure if I have the exact right manuals or not.

My problem is this... I'm trying to figure out how to engage the PTO so I can operate the winch but the PTO control/engagement lever is not where it is suppose to be according to the operators manual, only a grease zerk (again, not sure if the operators manual is for the right series) and the tech manual simply references that there is a control lever and the parts manual doesn't even have a PTO section nor can I find any reference to it in the transmission section.

I'm still researching best I can but was hoping someone here could shed some light on the subject for me and tell me where the PTO control lever is so I can engage it to operate the winch. I did find (in the clutch section of the tech manual) that constant mesh trans have a grease zerk in that location where the control lever should be (as per fig. 110-5-1, SM-2064) but not sure what that fig. would look like on the H-L-R trans. ugh... I think the obvious first step will be positively identifying which trans I have. I thought I had a H-L-R trans but now I'm second guessing that assumption. Are there any easily visible tell tales as to which trans I have? Or any idea where the PTO control lever is?

Thanks in advance for any advice I receive!
Darrell

[B Town]

A picture may be worth a thousand words. You can ask Lavoy for permission to post pics on this sites dedicated picture server. Details are under the Messageboard Q&A and announcement section.

Have you check the physical connection between the crawler and the winch. It is hard telling what the PO has done or not done. Simple to check.

I'm note much help with the straight series, I have more experience with my the C series.

Best regards, Bruce

[Jim B]

You posted in the past that you have a shifter between the steering levers with L-H-N-R, and the photos in your gallery on the picture server confirm that. One of your photos shows you have a shifter for 1, 2, 3, 4 just at the front right corner of the left arm rest. You have the HLR transmission.

I believe the splits in the 450 series serial numbers come into play mostly in the parts catalogs, not the service or operator's manuals which often show the various equipment used across the series. An early original printing might not have something that was added in a later printing of the same publication.

I believe most units with the HLR and a winch did not have a disconnect lever, the power shaft runs all the time. It will likely only work in neutral or forward, not in reverse. With the crawler running in neutral have you looked behind the winch to see if you can see the power shaft turning? If the shaft is turning, the issue of the winch not working is in the winch control or winch itself, it has a self contained hydraulic system. How is the oil level in the winch? The 3305 winch is diaphragm controlled and not commonly found on crawlers, as discussed in a previous post where you asked about it. The control lever should operate (via a cable) a control valve which has hoses back to the winch. You may need to use the 540 skidder parts catalog to research parts for it.

The manual/publication numbers I find that John Deere shows for a 450 loader of your vintage are:
For the crawler:
Operators manual OMT32592
Service manual SM2064
Parts catalog PC922 (available free on line)

For the loader only (crawler manuals are needed, these supplement those)
Operator's Manual OMT23810
Parts Catalog PC927

HTH
Jim

[cordlesscarpenter]

Gents,

Jim and Bruce, Thanks for replying! You two seem to be the regulars here... good to know there are people out there willing to help a brother out. Tomorrow morning I will check the PTO to see if and when it is turning, having a PTO constantly turning doesn't compute with me since my other crawler doesn't have a PTO and the PTO on all the FEL tractors I have driven engage with a control lever.

I did originally think my trans was a HLR but I am doubting that assumption now. After looking at the tech manual, both the CM and HLR transmissions have identical controls between the feet and on the front right side of my left arm rest. Being that this machine is so old, there's no telling what the POs did throughout the years to make everything work and I will make it a point now to take things at face value and not assume that the way it is in the manuals are exactly what I will experience.

I'm also reaching out to the guy I bought it from to ask a few questions...

Oh, and I did buy a thumb drive for a 540A on the cheap and it has the tech manual and parts manual for the 3305. Only my problem right now lies in being able to engage the PTO which is the 450, not the 540A.

Yes, the controller for the winch is indeed cable operated and is located on the right arm rest by my right knee, kinda where the 1,2,3,4 gear selector only on the other side.

Darrell

[B Town]

Parts wise and fundamental wise, the PTO (power take off) and the winch drive are very different. The winch drive only sticks out the back of the case 2-3 inches. The PTO is like 8 inches
Keep us posted, Bruce

[Stan Disbrow]

Hi,

As already noted, PTO and winch drive shafts are quite different. There is no in/out lever for a winch drive. From the factory anyway. It is possible to swap PTO and winch shafts so I have sometimes seen an in/out lever with a winch shaft. But, if you don't have an in/out lever with a winch, that would be the norm.

Stan

[Jim B]

Did you compare the list of manuals I posted to what you have for manuals?

A second on what Bruce posted. As I posted look between the back of the crawler and winch the shaft should be turning when the engine is running in neutral. For some reason I can't get a photo to attach this morning. If you go to the picture server you will find a photo I added of the power shaft and coupling the appears in the space between the crawler and winch on my 450E, yours should be similar.

[Jim B]

Does your 450 have a spin on oil filter in front of the radiator?

[cordlesscarpenter]

LOL...

The PO reported that "the winch works perfectly, push the lever forward to winch in and pull the lever back to free spool, the middle is neutral". That being said, I was an idiot and didn't operate/test the winch before I bought the crawler, I was going off the POs word that everything worked as it should and the controls seemed simple enough. Had I operated it with him, this conversation wouldn't be happening haha. But, being a mechanical engineer, looking at the manuals and talking with you guys helps me wrap my brain around the mechanics of it all and will benefit me more in the long run and may help me help others in the future (looking at the bright side). Plus I'm young and fully retired so I have all the time in the world to tinker around. I actually just got done painting her which between the de-greasing, rust removal, acetoning and painting, took me almost 3 weeks but man, what a difference!

Jim and Bruce,
- I'm totally confused now lol. I did not realize in the slightest that could be such a thing as a dedicated winch drive shaft coming out of the crawler, I assumed that was a PTO, do they both come out of the same hole and you either have one or the other? Is a winch drive shaft just shorter but connected to the same gearing or is it geared to something different altogether inside the transmission as well? All the photos I can see in the manuals are of a PTO so I never knew a winch drive shaft even existed. I'll do some investigating into all that today and see if I can't that out. Side note, most PTOs I am familiar with are shorter (not 8" long).

- The manuals you listed are the ones I have (SM-2064, PC-922 and PC-927) except my operators manual says series 13561-UP (not OMT32592), it is an aftermarket operators manual so it might be the right one, I just don't know yet.

- Yes, I have a spin on oil filter in front of the radiator, which was one of the features that led me to believe I had a HLR but what gives on the grease zerk being on the bell housing (under the air filter) where the PTO engagement lever should be? I guess it's a moot point if it's not a PTO but rather a winch drive shaft as I wouldn't be engaging a PTO shaft huh?

Stan,
I definitely have a lever on my crawler on the inside or my right arm rest at the front (like where the 1,2,3,4 gear selector is, only on the right side). It has a neutral position in the middle, a forward position (for winching something to you), and a rear position (which is suppose to allow free spool). This lever is connected to a cable which goes under the fuel tank back to the winch. If you don't have a winch control lever (in/out) how would one control the winch to make it do it's job? I'm curious because every winch I've ever owned has some kind of in/out control lever.

I'll take a few pics of my setup and post them but due to the confusing nature of the pic posting on this site, I might not have time to do that today.

Thanks again guys, I'll keep ya posted on what I find.

Darrell

[cordlesscarpenter]

Update:

The shaft (whichever it may be, PTO or winch drive shaft) from the crawler that drives the winch is indeed turning at all times (at least when the crawler is in neutral). The winch does in fact wind, but when I move the lever to the rear position it will not free spool. not sure if there is something else I'm suppose to do to get it to free spool, does anyone else know? HELP

Also, according to the parts catalog, the CM trans has a flat cover over the mesh filter on the right side towards the front where the HLR has a boss of some sort with what appears to be a grease zerk, is it a grease zerk? looks like one. Anyways, my mesh filter cover is the style found on a HLR trans. Which is better HLR, or CM? Why? The part number on the side of the trans case is "T 20760 T" followed by the JD symbol. Not sure if that number/case was used for both transmissions types or not and the parts catalog only shows the one case with no difference specifying it as HLR or CM.

If you want to see pics, or chat about this, shoot me an email at cordlesscarpenter@gmail.com

Thanks all!

Darrell

[Jim B]

OK you have a winch power shaft with no disconnect, not a PTO shaft. The options were a PTO shaft, a winch shaft, or no shaft. The winch shaft is shorter than the PTO shaft and the outer end splines are different. Our saying 8 inches was a bit over length on most tractors, more like 4 to 5inches on a 6 spline,1-3/8", 540 rpm PTO shaft. This post is about a 350 winch but there are photos of the power shaft to give you an idea of how it is different from a PTO shaft. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12592

As for it not free spooling; one cause may be the brake "sticking" from lack of use. You can hook the end of the cable to something solid, pull the lever back to release the brake, and drive the crawler ahead pulling the cable out to clear any rust or buildup from the drum. Try to gently feather the lever back towards center, from the full release position, as you go to drag the brake. When you get near the end stop, put the crawler in neutral, and winch it back to the anchor point. Try this a couple times and see if you can pull it by hand (there is no power out). If that doesn't work or won't release at all, you may need to open the side up, check the brake release cylinder operation, and make the brake band adjustments in the winch service section of the skidder manual you have. The manual should have some troubleshooting/diagnostics for the winch.

If you check out the parts catalogs for the engine clutches on both transmissions, there is a grease zerk; connected by an internal hose to the throwout bearing carrier which is located in the area you are looking at (top of the clutch housing, under the air cleaner); shown for both clutch set ups.

You say you have the spin on filter in front of the radiator, which is used with the HLR transmission, and the screen style in the transmission like the parts catalog shows for the HLR transmission. I have to believe you have the HLR transmission and if you look it over with the floor boards off, you will likely see the valves for the HLR.

Who published the aftermarket operator's manual you have? Maybe some here has the same manual and might confirm if it is right or wrong for your machine.

[JWB Contracting]

Just a few suggestions:

Verify the output shaft to the winch is turning. You can probably video this from above or have someone sit on the seat while you look from underneath

Make sure the actuations cable is fully engaging the valve. You can remove the cable and operate with vice grips.

Check the fluid level in the winch, check plug is on the right side when looking from the back and you fill in the barrel bung from the top

Change the winch filter

Check winch pressure according to the manual.

Remove left hand cover and inspect

We have done a few winches in the last year, had to replace the band and clean up the clutches on a 440 skidder I was using this past winter. There are some differences in them but follow the same basic principles. Much easier to work on a skidder. At times we have removed the fuel tank to work on the older spool valve style controlled winches.

[cordlesscarpenter]

I thought about using a tractor to tug on the spool while it was in free spool mode but didn't want to mess anything up if there was a more sensible option, plus after testing the "wind in", there is now only like a foot of free cable and barely reaches the drum of the arch (which is a JD 3600 I found out). I will probably hook some chains to the choker's bitter end, wrap it around the closest substantial tree and test out the method you suggested Jim.

Yes, I agree, I do believe I have the H-L-R trans, are there any other advantages over a CM trans other than being able to half clutch it and stop the crawler without stopping the winch drive? And, is that a grease zerk on the mesh filter's cover? If so, what is it greasing? The parts catalog I have only shows one transmission case and it is the flat/CM style cover.

The maker of the operators manual is "Peaceful Creek". It is a decent manual for what it is. Pretty sure everything is there and everything looks right to my machine, just not sure if it is the right series.

To Jim and JWB, I do plan on going through the entire tractor bow to stern using the tech manual as a guide for checking everything, and the winch will definitely be part of that as it will play an enormous role in my future... hundreds of trees will be harvested and logged with it and many will be large trees so I need it in tip top shape. Right now I am going to do the basics to the winch, probably change the oil if it needs it or at least top it off and get it working properly to log the trees I will need for the timber frame mini barn I'm building soon and once the trees are logged and the dirt work is done for said barn, I will probably remove the arch, drain the oil, pop off the covers and go through it, inspecting everything, not only to make sure all is well but to also be able to understand visually what is actually happening inside the winch when I operate it.

I still need to change the fluids in the crawler istelf, I tried to change the engine oil yesterday but ran into a rounded off drain plug so I got the plug on order along with a pack of alum crush washers. I also checked the trans fluid level and although a bit low, it looked brand new. I know better to trust what's on top so I cracked open the drain plug on it to and the trans fluid definitely needs to be changed (good thing I got a 10 pack of crush washers) haha. Now that I knew I would be changing the trans fluid (which I already had 10 gallons of HYGARD on standby), I went ahead and ordered the mesh filter seals and cover gasket for when I clean it.

Also in my future is a fuel transfer/lift pump swap as the current pump is leaking a bit... and I'll change the fuel filters out while the fuel system is down as well as troubleshoot other minor leaks on the crawler. Within the year I plan on swapping out a few hyd hoses, replacing all the wiper seals and probably filling up the hydraulic system with all new fluid. She is also leaking a bit of diesel out of one or more fittings on the tank which will need to be taken care of once I run through the 30 gallons currently in it.

Sounds like a lot of work but it will be fun work, at least fun for me ha.

Darrell

[B Town]

Just a couple of additional ideas to contribute to the above.

There is a small wire screen attached to the pick up for the hydraulic pump in the winch. This screen is a small tube with fine wire mess and gets plugged easily as the winches are often used hard and neglected. The screen is approximately 3/4" in diameter and 1 1/2" long. I would clean this screen.

As for our fuel system service, I would advocate servicing the sump in the bottom of the fuel tank. The owners manual recommends opening the sump and draining off water and debris from the fuel tank sump on a regularly basis.

What type of control valve is on your winch. Spool type (hydraulic spool pulls in/out of casting) or rotary type (small square box ~3"X3" mount on the front top left side of the winch)?

Good luck, Bruce

[Jim B]

Your Peaceful Creek Operator's manual should work. From what I found it appears to be a reprint of an early JD manual. The 1965 JD450 serial numbers were 10001 to 16159 so 13561 would have been mid-1965. Keep watch on eBay and you might pick up a good used copy of the JD OMT32592 manual for a reasonable price, if you want one to compare to your current one. The JD manual has likely had several printings with updates in them as changes were made in the 450s. Manuals are not always perfect and you have "weed" things out sometimes. As has been pointed out in other posts the Technical/service manuals were written for mechanics at a dealership and it was assumed they had access to related info, not included in the manual, along with working knowledge of the mechanics and systems of equipment; this is true with all manufacturers.

I don't know why there would be a zerk in/on the cover of the transmission screen, I would expect a plug if anything. Maybe someone used a zerk as a plug; if it is a zerk. I'm not clear on if you have had the cover off and know for sure if it is a zerk, or not.

The CM transmission is all gears/mechanical so you will get gears grinding when shifting, if you don't stop and wait for things to stop turning. The HLR has hydraulically operated clutches to reverse and change speed range and can shift under load with out gears grinding. The 1-2-3-4 shifting is mechanical in both transmissions and needs to be clutched.