450 PTO control/engagement lever - where is it?

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cordlesscarpenter
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Re: 450 PTO control/engagement lever - where is it?

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:08 am

Jim,
I'll find out all about the grease zerk (if that's what it is) on the trans mesh screen cover when my parts get here to do the fluid changes and I'll definitely share what I find. I'm pretty darn sure that's what it is as it is pretty visible once you remove the right side floor board. The pic that tipped me off to this feature difference in-between the two transmissions was in the tech manual (SM-2064, Fig. 130-5-1, first page of the 130 section). At least now I know which transmission I have now and can read all about it without thinking I could be wasting my time :-) .

So to clarify, I CAN indeed shuttle shift between High, low, neutral and reverse on the go under load on my machine and you're saying that if I had a CM, I wouldn't be able to do that right? It would just grind the gears correct?

Bruce,
I will look into the pick up tube screen, If it is reasonably accessible I will definitely clean it right away! I haven't looked at the diagrams yet but I'm imagining it is in the oil sump and would need to pull my arch, drain the winch, remove covers, etc...? That might need to wait until I fully go through it, or are you saying that it might be the cause of it not free spooling? It does wind in with no problem, so I know the drum is not seized up.

Will Definitely clear the fuel tank sump once the tank gets low enough... I didn't realize the tank even had a sump, so big thanks for 411! Wasn't even thinking about that. Makes me wonder what else I'm missing lol. I have been going through the manuals pretty regularly, reading them cover to cover slow and steady, it's just going to take some time and this particular crawler is all new to me so there is a slight learning curve to all its intricacies.

I will investigate into the type of control valve I have when I go out to tinker here soon.

Darrell

Jim B
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Re: 450 PTO control/engagement lever - where is it?

Post by Jim B » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:19 am

Yes, the CM (also called collar shift) transmission would grind gears if you tried to shift between Hi - Low- Neutral- and Reverse ranges without using the clutch. It is a mechanical reverser/range change gear box. These were used in a lot of the Ag wheel tractors. Your Operator's manual should cover the shifting parameters of both.

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: 450 PTO control/engagement lever - where is it?

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:44 pm

B Town wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:16 am
Just a couple of additional ideas to contribute to the above.

There is a small wire screen attached to the pick up for the hydraulic pump in the winch. This screen is a small tube with fine wire mess and gets plugged easily as the winches are often used hard and neglected. The screen is approximately 3/4" in diameter and 1 1/2" long. I would clean this screen.

As for our fuel system service, I would advocate servicing the sump in the bottom of the fuel tank. The owners manual recommends opening the sump and draining off water and debris from the fuel tank sump on a regularly basis.

What type of control valve is on your winch. Spool type (hydraulic spool pulls in/out of casting) or rotary type (small square box ~3"X3" mount on the front top left side of the winch)?

Good luck, Bruce
Bruce,
Rotary type. Is that good or bad?

B Town
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Re: 450 PTO control/engagement lever - where is it?

Post by B Town » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:13 pm

The rotary type is inferior to the spool type. Deere started with spools and then graduated to rotary types. Then had lots of trouble like you are describing. They warranted a lot of rotary valves, they eventually replaced them with spool valves in a recall. And switched future production to spool valves.

Spool is easily rebuildable. No parts for the rotary valves. Jkequipment sells a replacement. It is much less than the one at Mother Deere.

Good chances the valve is your problem, but please do your diagnostics and due diligence before you simple replace parts.

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: 450 PTO control/engagement lever - where is it?

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:25 pm

Well Fooie. I don't really know what I'm looking at though so I could be wrong. I'll do some digging and see if I can more positively identify the valve in question.

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: 450 PTO control/engagement lever - where is it?

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:13 am

UPDATE:

I went to start her up and see if running her at a higher RPM would allow the piston to override the brake springs and allow free-spool and she wouldn't start... 2 new batteries and a new starter later, she fires up. I raise the RPM (with low hopes) and she doesn't free spool, ugh.

I continue to troubleshoot, this time starting from the control handle... turns out the aluminum block that holds the cable housing had come loose, not allowing the cable to move independently of the cable housing. A quick fix on the cable block and the winch is working flawlessly!!!

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: 450 PTO control/engagement lever - where is it?

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:32 pm

Today was proving day for the winch (and the crawler in general) since all the work. The crawler, she worked great, the winch, not so much. The 3305 free spools fine and winches in but has no guts to pull. Does anyone know any low hanging fruit to look at before tearing into it? At least the brake holds and I can hook up and drag...

B Town
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Re: 450 PTO control/engagement lever - where is it?

Post by B Town » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:36 pm

Sounds like worn out clutch/friction discs. No easy way around it.

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: 450 PTO control/engagement lever - where is it?

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:51 pm

Funny thing, after I posted that, I kept working it on different logs and was able to pull about a 1,000 log but only on flat ground, I was pulling all the others uphill and they were much larger logs. When this logging season (for me) ends, I'll definitely be doing a full rebuild on the winch.

Clutches huh? I'm betting they aren't cheap, :-(

JWB Contracting
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Re: 450 PTO control/engagement lever - where is it?

Post by JWB Contracting » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:50 pm

I would recommend pulling the clutch discs and clean them up with a palm sander. You could also remove the piston and clean up the edges. There are only a handful of disks, also sand the grooves in the drum. I’m guessing in less than an hour I could do this now and set the brake band. It helps if you have a newer model winch which can be operated with the cover removed. That way you can operate with the cover removed and verify the brake is releasing enough. You should be able to free spool the line out with one hand cleaned and adjusted properly. Bend a wrench up to adjust the brake if you haven’t already.
Jason Benesch

John Deere 420, 430, 440 & 350C With 3 Point Hitch
John Deere 400G With Winch
John Deere 2010 Crawler Dozer
John Deere 420, 430, 435 & 440 Wheel Tractors

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: 450 PTO control/engagement lever - where is it?

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:14 am

JWB, Thanks for the input, I will most likely do exactly that... if the clutch plates aren't worn too bad, I'll just pull everything apart, clean it all up, deburr and re-assemble. It would be nice to be able to operate with the plate off, not sure of anything until I dig in.

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