450 H-L-R Transmission

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cordlesscarpenter
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450 H-L-R Transmission

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:41 am

Hello gents, it's me again...
A few months ago I bought a 450 straight, crawler/loader, diesel, with a Hi-Lo-Reverser Transmission (mid 60's I think). You guys on here have given me tons of great insight and advise so I come to you with another conundrum...

Since I bought the machine, I have been working on her almost every day doing everything from cleaning and full paint job to replacing worn and parts and fluid/filter changes. I tell you, it's amazing what you learn in such a short time about equipment when you spend all day with it or are looking for parts, nose deep in the manuals, etc. So this morning I finally had her running good, no... great! The objective was to go work her a little (but not too drastic since her skid plate is not on yet), go through ALL the gears and all ranges in all the gears, get her good and warmed up then change out the H-L-R fluid. So I get her all warmed up, park her, pull the drain plug and that's when I start scratching my head. The second I pulled the plug I hear a few chunks of something hit the oil container, then I realized flow was restricted so I stick my finger up there then a magnet and a loose bolt pokes out! I cannot pull it all the way out because the head of it (or perhaps a jam nut) will not fit through the hole. The bolt that is sticking out of my drain plug right now looks to be about a 3/8-16 bolt with stripped threads towards the end and the entire tip has a 45 degree chamfer, looks like it was ground to a point. Looking in the service manual (SM-2064) and parts manual, the only part I can see that has the ground tip like that is the needle valve for the "clutch control unit" ("LL" in diagram 130-15-24, in section 130-15-8, only the bolt sticking out of my drain hole right now doesn't have the non-threaded shank like that shows... its threads all the way to the tip (with the last couple threads closest to the point being stripped looking).

Here's the conundrum... I ran the machine through all gears 1-2-3-4 and H, L, R in ALL gears and it operates perfectly, no hiccups, very smooth transition and engaged in all 12 positions without flaw with expected results. No gears grinding, no other funny sounds, no nothing. I was hoping someone on here has either run into this problem themselves, or has had their H-L-R transmission apart knows what I'm dealing with here, or maybe knows what part/bolt this is and what its job is inside the trans??? Perhaps it was one of multiple bolts holding something on and the housing ear the bolt ran through busted and it came loose? That would explain the chunks.

After lunch I plan to go out and swap the filter in front (behind the grill) and pull the side filter for cleaning and new seals, possibly I can get a peak at what is hung up in my drain hole if I'm lucky.

The way the machine operates so flawlessly, it almost makes me think the trans was rebuilt or at least open at some point and somebody carelessly dropped said bolt in there without realizing it but then what about the other chunks that fell out? I'll know as soon as I empty the oil container.

Anyone deal with this or have any ideas or suggestions? Surely I don't want to pull the trans if I don't have to.

Thanks
Darrell

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: 450 H-L-R Transmission issues

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:35 pm

Ok, Once I removed the mesh filter cover and all the filter guts, I was left with the filter (sleeve housing), I ended up unbolting it which after moving it around gave me just enough room to fish out what I thought was a bolt... this object has bolt threads but no bolt head, no way of tightening it down with a conventional tool (and the "head" didn't just snap off, it appears that this was machined this way. I am now of the opinion what I pulled out of there is the clutch control unit's needle valve ((SM-2064, 130-15-13, figure 130-15-32, left side of picture), only mine has the long needle busted off. I'm thinking that the needle was probably screwed in too much during the last installation and snapped off, then over the years, the bolt looking portion backed out and ended up in the pan. That would explain why everything operates just as it should but what if that needle pops loose...?? Something else I found is what looks like a ball bearing retainer... no bearings, only pieces some big some small but yeah, a ball bearing retainer. The only BALL bearing I even see in the manuals is at the front of the trans housing. Is it possible the bearing is still intact without the bearing retainer? Oh if only I had X-Ray vision. Any thoughts, comments?

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: 450 H-L-R Transmission

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:36 am

Got all the interference out of the way to pull the top cover of the trans and unbolted it... time to rig a small chain fall from the ROPS and lift it up to see what's what under there...

Rayman1975
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Re: 450 H-L-R Transmission

Post by Rayman1975 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:24 am

I had a bearing retainer in the bottom of my 450 as well....it was from the imput bearing. All the balls stayed in but layed in the bottom of the bearing race. Made a mess of things.
Last edited by Rayman1975 on Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rayman1975
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Post by Rayman1975 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:30 am

I

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: 450 H-L-R Transmission

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:11 am

Rayman1975 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:24 am
I had a bearing retainer in the bottom of my 450 as well....it was from the imput bearing. All the balls stayed in but layed in the bottom of the bearing race. Made a mess of things.
Yup, that's exactly what it was... I rigged a small chain fall from the ROPS and popped the top cover loose and lifted it out of the way. The first thing I did was look at the input bearing and sure enough, that is exactly what it was. All the bearings are still there but the retainer is not and the bearings are all sitting at the bottom. How long has it been since you discovered yours like this and have you experienced any issues with it? In a perfect world, one would have a big shop with a gantry and could pull the machine apart and replace the bearing but in my case, it is staying just like that, at least until I have the means to replace it myself. I could see maybe the input shaft seal going bad quicker if there is any play but I know bearings pretty good and the balls should never pop out, it's hard enough to get the the balls out when it's free in your hand, much less, when it's supported by a shaft and that shaft has other roller bearings supporting it. I'm still perplexed by the other part that I pulled out (looks like a bolt with a chamfered tip but instead of a hex head cap screw, it's just round with what looks like a button on top that is all machined as one piece). Nothing in the entire trans looks like this piece so it's a head scratcher for sure.

Now I'm dealing with a sticky left steering clutch... ha

Rayman1975
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Re: 450 H-L-R Transmission

Post by Rayman1975 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:54 am

Have to remove the engine, bellhousing, tranny oil pump, transmission front cover, then can unbolt imput bearing quill and pull bearing quill (housing) and imput shaft out toward the front. Bearing held in by snap ring. Takes 1 min to drop new bearing in but 1 month to do the whole disassembly and assembly. The imput shaft seal is in the oil pump if you want to replace it, along with a o ring.
My imput bearing caused damage to the clutch oil manifold as well. That is right behind the clutch drum and under the accumulator housing. There are piston rings inside that are really important to oil pressure to the clutch packs. If i went that far i would pull the clutch drum out and inspect rings and manifold also. Rob

Rayman1975
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Re: 450 H-L-R Transmission

Post by Rayman1975 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:05 am

Couple more things, if you run it that way with that bad bearing you will destroy the oil pump bushing, the clutch oil manifold, and needle bearing on the front of the clutch drum shaft. Also would love to see a picture of that (bolt). Maybe i could tell you what it is if i see it......

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: 450 H-L-R Transmission

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:15 pm

Rayman1975 wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:05 am
Couple more things, if you run it that way with that bad bearing you will destroy the oil pump bushing, the clutch oil manifold, and needle bearing on the front of the clutch drum shaft. Also would love to see a picture of that (bolt). Maybe i could tell you what it is if i see it......
Rob, if you could, email me at cordlesscarpenter@gmail.com

I'll be able to send pics much easier that way. Oh, and the left steering clutch ended up being an adjustment issue. the PO rebuilt the left side but it wasn't adjusted properly AT ALL. It ended up being more involved than simply following the procedure in the book but that was a great starting point.

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