Re: 450c frame and purchase questions. Brought it home

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slabguy
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Re: 450c frame and purchase questions. Brought it home

Post by slabguy » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:50 pm

I’ve been lurking for a little while but I’m very new to late model jd crawlers so forgive me for my ignorance. I’m going to look at a 76 450c on Wednesday and had a few questions. In my hunt I haven’t seen many 450s with the blade frame that attaches to the tracks in this manner. Is that just on certain years or is there some significance In this type frame? Is there anything in particular I should look at on this specific model besides the usual items that apply to most dozers before purchase? Supposedly it runs good and has plenty of life left in the undercarriage. Winch functionality is questionable at this point. Thanks in advance. https://imgur.com/a/hqSx8ul
Last edited by slabguy on Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

slabguy
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Re: 450c frame question

Post by slabguy » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:53 pm


B Town
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Re: 450c frame and purchase questions

Post by B Town » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:10 pm

Welcome to the board.

Nice looking 450. The outside mount hydraulic tilt blade is a 6415, I believe. Typically the outside mount blades are stronger than the inside mount blades. The chains look nice and have plenty of hours of service left. Single bar grousers look really good, also. Make sure the H-L-R transmission works.

Best regards,
Bruce

slabguy
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Re: 450c frame and purchase questions

Post by slabguy » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:30 pm

Thanks Bruce. Another question is would not having a 6 way blade be a deal breaker for you guys? The straight blade machines I’ve seen are more in my price range. I’ll mainly be using it to clear/maintain old logging trails, push in a driveway through an existing ag field, build house and shop pads, do some clearing of small pines and saplings, and just general grading around the farm.

B Town
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Re: 450c frame and purchase questions

Post by B Town » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:10 pm

The only function you would not have is angle, which is helpful for moving material from one side to the other side. As stated the outside blades are more robust. The hydraulic tilt is definitely a plus. I would not turn down that crawler b/c it is a 6415 and not a 6405! I think it would do all the work you described and more.

slabguy
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Re: 450c frame and purchase questions

Post by slabguy » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:12 pm

Great, thanks B town. Can someone give me a quick rundown or a link on how to operate the winch so I can see if it works? The current owner claims they have never used it because they were just using the dozer for road maintenance. They also claim this is an ex forest service machine. Not sure if that’s a good or bad thing.

B Town
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Re: 450c frame and purchase questions

Post by B Town » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:03 pm

Ex forestry machine can be bad b/c they may have had many different operators (good, bad inexperienced etc). But these machines usually had lower hours and no expense spared with the tax payer dollars!!

The winch is powered by a winch drive that exits the rear of the machine. There is a splined coupler used to attach the drive and the input, you can see these on the underside. The winch drive spins at true engine RPM. The hydraulics of the winch are independent of the crawler and self-enclosed in the winch. You should check the fluid level before operating. The spool in and spool out lever is near the operators seat, usually at the right side bxt the cushion and the right box. This lever is connected to the control valve by a cable. There are 2 types in that era. One is a small square box (~4”X4”) this is the less desirable rotary control valve. No current way to rebuild, it is replace only and super $$$. The other is a typical spool valve which is easily and inexpensively rebuilt.

The winch does not power out, it should spool out freely and easily. Spool in is powered and self-explanatory.

It looks like like it is equipped with a fairleads accessory, which is a desirable and $$ option.

Jim B
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Re: 450c frame and purchase questions

Post by Jim B » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:57 am

Welcome,

As Bruce said it looks good. I agree that the having the tilt is a plus, you can level side to side from the seat as you push. I think that is more important than the angle feature.

The winch brake might be stuck if they never used it. The winch should be operational with the HLR in neutral (or forward, not reverse). Moving (pulling up) the lever at the right side of the seat to the rear should release the brake. It should lock in position to keep the brake released, allowing one to pull the cable out. Pushing the lever forward (pushing down) energizes the clutch pack to wind the cable in. The winch has its own self contained oil/hydraulic system, it is not connected to the crawler hydraulic system.

Ask if they have any of the manuals for it. If they do, you should get them, if you decide to purchase it. It may save you purchasing a set. Operator's and Technical/service are most important as you can use the on line parts catalog.

slabguy
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Re: 450c frame and purchase questions

Post by slabguy » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:59 am

Great. Thanks for all the help guys.

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: 450c frame and purchase questions

Post by Stan Disbrow » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:49 pm

Hi,

Both my current and previous 350s had an outside mount blade. The part I like best about them is being able to work on a ditch with the tracks up on the road surface. This, as opposed to an inside mount blade where one track is down in the ditch and the machine weight then running on the roller flanges.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

slabguy
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Re: 450c frame and purchase questions. Brought it home

Post by slabguy » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:58 pm

Well, she followed me home today. I have a huge amount of info to learn and process. I ran it for about an hour when I got home grading some washout in the main drive and pushing some saplings down and honestly I had a great time on it. I also realized that my skills are a little rusty :lol:. It ran flawlessly and did everything I asked of it. The blade pins have some slop in them but not too bad. I'll probably replace them before too long. See pics here: https://imgur.com/a/3vbyHm4

I'm sure I will have tons of questions as I get in to this thing but here are a few right of the bat. I intend to study hard in the FAQs and forum before posting too much.
1. The driver's side front idler appears to be a different type than the passenger's side. See pictures. The wear on the driver's side appears to be fairly even. The wear on the passenger's side appears to be uneven. Is this cause for concern? Are the 2 different types of idlers common with replacements and any cause for concern?
2. Where the piston goes in to the track adjuster yoke on the driver's side appears to be somewhat out of square/alignment. You can tell in the pics somewhat. There appears to be plenty of room left in the adjusters from what I can tell but I was concerned about this one not being in alignment.
3. I think the previous owner was running the tracks too tight but maybe not. What is the correct amount of sag in these tracks?
4. The owner did not have any manuals so I need to work on getting some coming. Is there a place that most of you guys get them from?
5. The tach registers rpm but is out of calibration somehow. At idle it is redlined and at full throttle it goes all the way back around to zero or past zero. Is there some way to calibrate it or should I start looking for a replacement?
6. With the above being the case do you guys run wide open throttle when pushing? I don't have any way to know rpms currently and don't want to damage something.
7. The winch works!! It does leak a little and I'm not sure where from yet but not too bad. It does either need a new cable or needs to be reconnected to the control valve somehow. I just operated the control valve with my hand today to check operation. Any recommendation on where to get a new cable?

I can't thank you guys enough for all the help so far. I look forward to being a part of this community.

Jim B
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Re: 450c frame and purchase questions. Brought it home

Post by Jim B » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:54 pm

Contact Lavoy and see if he can set you up with the right manuals. For reference the current John Deere publication numbers for a 450C crawler dozer are: Operator's Manual # OMT71338 ( OMT62743 was an earlier one), the Technical (service) Manual is # TM1102, and the Parts Catalog is # PC1443. If for some reason Lavoy can't help you with manuals, post back and we will find some other options. If you are looking elsewhere, before you buy reprints, ask if anyone has experience with that brand manual, some are very poor quality or incomplete.

Track sag spec: 7/8" to 1-1/8" sag in the center between the carrier roll and sprocket.

Alignment and track component measurements will be in the manuals, there are several things to check.

Lavoy may have a source for a control cable to fit your winch.

Personally I wouldn't worry about a tach/proof meter. The governor will limit the engine top rpm. I run the engine speed up but not full throttle unless really needed, down for fine work. You will find a point that feels comfortable, the engine isn't lugging, and the crawler performs well for what you are doing between the throttle and gear ranges. JMHO

slabguy
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Re: 450c frame and purchase questions. Brought it home

Post by slabguy » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:46 pm

Thanks Jim. Is the correct procedure for loosening tracks to just remove grease fitting and run the dozer for a minute to force some grease out?

Jim B
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Re: 450c frame and purchase questions. Brought it home

Post by Jim B » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:09 pm

Loosen the square head screw a bit, not the grease fitting. There should be a ball under it that actually seals the release hole. Don't loose the ball if you remove the screw. The ball will come out in the grease if the screw is removed, no ball no seal when you tighten the screw back down. If the tracks are tight often the grease will come out as you back the screw out and you won't need to do any more than that. It doesn't take much to change the sag a good bit. I have stood on or jumped on a track between the carrier roll and sprocket, and gotten more grease out than needed to get the sag. If needed you can move the machine to slack the track, likely you won't need to.

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