JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

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gregjo1948
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by gregjo1948 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:32 am

While you have the liner out, do measurements on it. I think it's possible that the liner itself may be faultily manufactured. I can't believe there's enough flex in these liners to allow thousandths of an inch variants if the bottom seat is not "level". Maybe the cylinder wasn't bored perpendicular to the head mounting surface. WOW!!! I'm really reaching now. Good luck and let us know what you find.
JD 350B diesel 6way blade, Case 580B Loader/backhoe, Farmall 504 high crop w/ flail boom mower, International 404 , International 284 diesel w/belly mower, 1972 Ford F600 dump truck, Galion 3-5 roller, Allis Chalmers D17, 1620 Ford

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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Lavoy » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:16 am

I would believe it is not bored perpendicular before I would believe there is enough slop for it to tilt, might be the answer.
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:40 am

Well at the risk of making yet another longer than neccessary post yesterday (I'm good at it :) ) I stopped in and had a 2 hour conversation with the John Deere guy I mentioned was the go to person for John Deeres around here. We talked about JD's and airplanes. He had a couple suggestions on getting the liner out, and then explained that years ago the Dubuque ?? factory found an issue with block manufacturing that affected a lot of engine blocks. He use to work for them I guess. He said that one of their block boring machines was positioned in the factory where the morning and mid day sun would come through windows effectivly heating part of the boring machine that cause thousands of blocks to be bored crooked and out of spec. That the problem existed for a long time and once discovered it took a while before someone figured out that the changes and expansion from the suns heat was the cause of the inconsistent machining. The windows were blocked and apparently the problem ceased.
A pretty interesting story. I have no way to say wether it is true or not. I believe him. He has quite a reputation around here. He suggested the best and only competent machine shop down in Spokane if that is what I need later.
I need to run to town again. When I get back I intend to fabricate a stout puck or foot for the bottom of the liner. I will get it out. Then a super clean of the bore and hope it is not crooked and cracked. I will measure everything and hope for the best. As of now the liner is up about 3/8 and waiting for me. I soaked it with PB as mentioned. I thought I would mention his story.
I appreciate all the replies and help. Gas motors and gear boxes are not a big deal. The diesel world is pretty new and I know I need to listen and learn. So Thanks...
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:37 pm

Got home and started in on making a puller that will hopefully last a good long time. If all goes well it will hang there on it's pegboard hook after I am done and get real dusty. :wink: So I made this. Three choices for allthread. A single center if it is not a hard pull, or dual allthread for a tough pull. I found by putting a super long tie wrap in the center hole, I could lower it down and pull up to center it on the liner while I threaded both puller shafts in. Piece of cake and a one person job.

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It pulled the liner in seconds. I think I did all the work yesterday and today it just needed a taller arrangement.

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It looks like the packing failed. It was pinched and had a memory that showed it was that way a long time.

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I am not sure but this might be a star crack. The rest of the liner looks pretty bad.

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I am surprised at the solids in the water jacket everywhere. The two lower o-rings are there and intact. I cleaned and wire brushed the upper liner seat in the block. It looks like the liner was moving from the scrub marks on the low side and measureing it looks like the low side is still low. I need to use a dremel with a small wire wheel and get it super clean, examine it again and use two separate measuring tools to verify what is there.

Some one honed the other three liners. I see the hone lines and they are pitifully flat and just about horizontal. No 45 degree cross hatch what so ever. This motor is due for some serious corrective work.

Lavoy are you still selling in frame kits? If not, any suggestions? I see several places online and can't really tell the difference between kits.
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by gregjo1948 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:32 am

Coming back to the off perpendicular boring, you could use a square down thru the cylinder which, wouldn't probably be real good or you could simply measure across the bottom of the bores to see if there are any inconsistencies.
JD 350B diesel 6way blade, Case 580B Loader/backhoe, Farmall 504 high crop w/ flail boom mower, International 404 , International 284 diesel w/belly mower, 1972 Ford F600 dump truck, Galion 3-5 roller, Allis Chalmers D17, 1620 Ford

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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by B Town » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:10 am

77 Ford wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:28 am
I can't imagine that the liner has that kind of flex in it. If there was something on the ledge then the whole liner would just stick out. Like Lavoy says the math to make that thing tilt is mind boggling. I would be very curious to see that liner out on a known flat surfaced and measured.

I think I did a rather poor job of explaining what we have experienced. You are correct the liner does not flex, but the O-rings allow the wet liner to tilt one way or the other if there is debris under the liner, if the O rings are improperly installed or not held in place properly while the cylinder heads off. After looking at the pictures with the liner and o-rings removed it is obvious that O rings were not properly installed. What we often see is o-rings and liners installed without the liners being properly secured. If not properly secured with large washers and bolts, the O-rings swell and the liner moves. Then when installing the cylinder head, the cylinder head will smash the liner in a tilted fashion causing these kinds of problems. We rarely see broken blocks in the landing's with wet sleeve engines.

It is very obvious that the PO did not follow proper procedure on several accounts. It looks like the you are doing a very good job of bringing this tired iron back to life.

You have made a nice sleeve puller. The only difference I can see bxt your's and our commercial puller is our's is fine hard-threaded.

Best regards,

Bruce

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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Lavoy » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:52 am

Bruce,
What is the difference between the OD of the liner, and the ID of the block? I must be much larger than I thought, I assumed only a few thousandths, which is why I figured it could not tilt.
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Lavoy » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:53 am

I should have access to kits, lost one supplier, gained another one. Give me a call and we can look at options.
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:24 am

Thank you Bruce for your post. I was concerned about thread failure. I will get better threaded shafts later if it does. I have been trying to decide how far to take this repair. Given the slop in the timing gears, the slop in the balance shaft bushings, and the general wear including semi slow build of oil pressure on start up, I think I am deciding to remove the engine and check, measure and repair everything. My long term work project got completed and went away two weeks ago. I now have the time to do this and concentrate on it. My friend that stopped by is a field service repair guy. His objective is to get his customers running again asap. I tend to repair everything in reach. I am just a home owner that has a crawler. Down time does not affect me like a business. While the motor is out, I will also put a new clutch in. And I see a couple damaged and super stiff hoses. I will surely have some questions. I will post the progress. At this point I think this is the best thing to do. We have been saving money for this. So here goes. :wink:
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by gaspumpsam » Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:40 am

Just a shot in the dark here— but if whoever installed liner originally , and wasn’t paying enough attention to assembly to cut rings on liner, just maybe also with the problems already posted here with the liner etc, I would be cleaning all head bolt holes in block, to make sure bolts are actually holding head tight onto block and gasket and liners. Also measuring cyl head and bolt length to make sure someone hasn’t been shaving head looking for this head gasket problem and got cyl head thinner than specs

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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:32 pm

The cylinder head was lightly surfaced with .003 taken off with my first headgasket. The machinist said it was pretty flat. That would have been the second head gasket since I found the previous owner had done one that also blew right away. So the head gasket I was just about to do would have been the third. anyway.....

I had two valve heights corrected when I had it surfaced. All the specs were checked. I believe the cyliner head is good to go so far.

The top deck of my block is not in the greatest shape. Talking with a machine shop in Spokane that the local JD guy said was the best place to take JD parts, and was quoted 200 bucks for a hot tank, surface the deck, and reset the liner bores. I will have to reset my valve clearances which needed to be done anyway. The motor is still in and I hope to get it out tomorrow. I will get the folding tables out to lay everything out for measureing and wear checks. My friend that stopped by early on says he has some leads on running engines. Unless they are super cheap, I would rather go with a known good rebuild done here and be done with it. I suppose plans could still change.
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Lavoy » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:01 am

My theory on that is, you had a good running used engine til it wasn't. Nothing says the used engine you get is any better than the one you have unless you tear it all down. If your block is salvageable, I would rebuild it correctly, and you are likely done forever unless you are using this machine for a living, then maybe only 15-20 years. :D
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:09 pm

Well it looks savable. It just need some machine work. I am going to have the shop take a couple thousandths off the deck and do the liners bores to bring it back to original correct depth in relation to the deck. I will be curious to see if the liner bores are straight. I got to looking at the step in number 4. You could see a witness mark where the packing actually squeezed past the liner below the step and left the area it was supposed to seal.
It must have been that way a long time to leave a mark like that. Despite being a little under the weather today and not feeling so great, I got the engine out and all that is left to get down to a bare block is removing the timing gears, crank, and remaining pistons and sleeves. I am going to have them surface the flywheel also. It needs a new clutch. Mays well while it's apart.

This is how far I got today. I sent this picture to a friend and said " my crawler is not running very well, I think it is missing on all 4 cyliners. Do you see anything obvious???"

He has a pretty good sense of humor. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by DrLoch » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:48 am

Very nice machine, well worth saving. I agree with Lavoy. I've bought stuff that was in worse shape that what I had. Having been there done that in the past you are going down the right road. After you are done you will know exactly what you have.
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Lavoy » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:13 am

I wonder if you should have the machine shop set the new liners in and check protrusion just in case they need to be decked.
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