JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

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oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:25 am

I did find a serial number plate on ebay that the seller is engraving for me It will say 4239T JAN 2020 It is 3.75 X 1 inch and was only about 20 bucks. I did find the perfect John Deere reproduction data plate with even the correct hole spacing. It said model and serial number. I know I don't cut corners, but 60 bucks was way to much I felt. I am also finally getting new parts installed. I kept finding cosmoline and doubt I got it all. Tons of cleaning and rinsing. And a headache from the fumes. I am getting excited about it though.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

Jim B
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Jim B » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:46 am

I don't remember and didn't find it in a quick look through your posts, but are you building this as a turbocharged engine? I might be wrong but I believe they put the "T" at the end of the serial number digits for Dubuque built engines for a time and now it usually shows as "TO" before the engine model number for Dubuque. A "T" at the the end of the engine model number commonly designated a turbo charged engine. just curious.

Its looking good, you are getting close to success.

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:56 pm

It was a turbocharged 4219 that came out, and the 4239 going in it's place. So yes it is turbocharged. I thought the Turbo designation was after the engine number. 4239 4 being a 4 cylinder, 239 cubic inches etc. So 4239T should be correct right? :) I guess the most important thing is to have the displacement and engine type for any possible sales later. I don't plan on selling it but if money gets tight it will be one of the first things to go. I know one of these years we will get 6-8 feet of snow. And I will be darn glad to have it. 96 over 10 feet was recorded. 3-5 is typical every year. By the end of each season I run out of places to put snow. It is snowing right now. :mrgreen:
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

Jim B
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Jim B » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:45 am

Yes, 4239T would be turbo'd. From what I have found in the past the "T" at the very end meant Dubuque Tractor Works. When they changed the format of the serial number tag info they started using "TO" at the very start of the information for Dubuque, and the letters right after the model (4239) designated type and application of the engines. There is info about the serial number breakdowns in the introduction section of the parts books. You are right having the right model number in the future will be a key thing.

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:38 pm

I dropped my turbo off the solvent tank. :( I set it up there to get a gasket scraper to remove one of the gaskets for the oil feed. It was like slow motion. I could not catch it. It landed on a 3/4 inch thick high density rubber horse mat and bounced about 5 inches up from about 4 feet high. I am not to happy with myself right now. I have been super busy making parts to fill orders and had my snow plow break. I got all caught up and I finally got back on the motor assembly after not having time to do much to it for two weeks. Then this.... :arrow: :|

I took a look and in denial went ahead and masked it up for paint. I will unmask it after the paint dries. I will look for bent vanes, contact marks on the housings, run out while spinning etc... Did I ruin it? What are the chances I bent the rotor shaft? Should I risk putting this turbo on this brand new engine? I see turbos online ranging from 408 to 1300 bucks. I am leary of chinese garbage. It is an AIR RESEARCH AR70439 in the manual.
The block is loaded and I am waiting for a new style oil pump tube. I will get the timing cover on after landing the oil pump and timing all the gears. I am going to go sit in the corner while I wait for opinions.
And Merry Christmas to everyone tomorrow. It's here.

EDIT: Pulled masking. I don't see any bent vanes, contact marks, or runout. I looked very closely at it. It was a 3'6" fall to the rubber mat. Rebuilt John Deere unit marked RE30028.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:56 pm

Merry Christmas. I hope everyone had a good one. I am in a conundrum about what to do about the turbo. I don't see anything obvious. But what could happen if I put it on and it failed? The turbine shaft has very little play. Just the oil clearance in the bearings is all I can feel. Everyone seems to be selling the same A&I built turbo for prices all over the map. Is A&I a good bet? I know John Deere bought it in 2010. There are plenty of dislikes of A&I online... I guess it is a matter of evaluating the risks of a failure.
Any of you more experienced mechanics out there, I could sure use an opinion on this.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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gregjo1948
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by gregjo1948 » Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:32 am

Peace of mind---bite the bullet and replace it. If it grenades, you'll make a mess of your new engine. Think about you've invested. Just my opinion, gregjo1948
JD 350B diesel 6way blade, Case 580B Loader/backhoe, Farmall 504 high crop w/ flail boom mower, International 404 , International 284 diesel w/belly mower, 1972 Ford F600 dump truck, Galion 3-5 roller, Allis Chalmers D17, 1620 Ford

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LeonardL
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by LeonardL » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:21 am

Merry Christmas to you as well. I have been following your re-build with a lot of interest. Your Turbo is tougher than you give it credit for and is probably okay. However from a professional point of view? I would have replaced it with either a new one or a rebuilt from the beginning. You have gone this far on a fantastic rebuild so why get cheap now.

When I rebuild an engine, I try to leave nothing to doubt. I have had things come back to bite me on the butt when I was a young mechanic and I learned not to do it again. I have always had the opinion that if you're going to do a complete overhaul and you want it to be the same as when it was new, then replace things like turbos, oil pumps and fuel systems. You're putting an old turbo on a new engine. Personally, I couldn't do that. It would need to be either a rebuilt or a new one. I agree with Gregjo1948 on this one. Why take the chance to begin with.

As for A&I? I have never had a problem with them. I have used a lot of their stuff especially after Deere got involved with them. If you're nervous about them, then there are other sources out there. Here where I live we have two parts stores that can send a turbo out and have it rebuilt or can get what ever I need. That's my two cents worth!! :D
40 years working on JD 350s and other equipment.

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Lavoy
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Lavoy » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:40 am

In addition to A&I, I have a couple other sources for turbo's. If you want me to check, shoot me an e-mail and I can look into it.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:01 pm

Done deal... You are all right. I have been struggling with it. This morning my wife could tell that was all I was thinking about.
She said just replace it, don't take a chance. The turbo here will become a nice looking paper weight. :mrgreen:

So Lavoy I need to chat with you and yes I need a turbo. The JD reman tag on it says RE30028 The manual says for the Air Research (says that on the turbo) the number is AR70439. The JD parts finder site subs to a SE500285.
It's a 75 450C that had the 4219T engine. And as posted a 4239 is going in. I will go look for your number.

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:42 pm

For Lavoy in case there are email issues again.
******************
Thanks for the phone time today. Here are the numbers for both turbo and injection pump.

Model and year: JD450C crawler and it is a 1975 4219T engine being replaced with a 4239

Turbo: JD rebuild tag says RE30028
Manual says the air research is an AR70439.

The injection pump says AR51747 RPM 2500
Model is JDB-2802 Serial number is 5145788

If the email has issues let me know here and I will call with my contact info.

Thank you all.
Al
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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Lavoy
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Lavoy » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:44 am

Got some info for you, will try and call later today.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:52 pm

Looking forward to it Lavoy. I should be here working on a big greasy yellow thing.
**********************
And I had some pictures to post. I found a fantastic way to load the Camshaft in the block without scraping lobes on bearing bores. Plus changes to oil pump stuff. Unfortunately I use photobucket. And they are down hard from a power outage on the 18th. Maybe it is time for me to research a different photo hosting site. I have a couple thousand pictures with PB. They charge now or the pictures go away. It would wreck my build threads. I hope to be able to post soon.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

dtoots1
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by dtoots1 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:41 am

we do have a dedicated pic server on site if you are unaware of it. read q&a forum.

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:20 pm

Yes, Lavoy mentioned that on the phone this morning. I will check it out. It seems photobucket is working today, so I went ahead and loaded some pictures up this morning . Thank you for posing the info... I will go look into it.

So first off I want to say that Stan Disbrow is right. There is no such thing as a cheap crawler. :mrgreen: Every time I clean something or look I find damage or wear that has to be addressed. My front radiator support had one hole for the pump that had pulled threads. A quick helicoil repair and now the threads are stronger than original. The pump was moving on it's mount and creating terrible wear on the input splines. Down to a knife edge and ready to strip out. I can see I was not far from it. I ordered a 23 gallon a minute pump with a new coupler. There is a very early 15 GPM, a 19 GPM and a later 23 GPM. I have the Cessna 24509 LBZ and I think that is the 19 GPM. Everything subs to the 23 GPM pump now.

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Backing up a week or so, I have been checking everything that can be measured. Rods and mains consistent at about .002 thousandths oil clearance. Crank end play .0045

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I found a great way to load the camshaft. It ships with a chinese finger cuff type protective sleeve. I cut sections out and slit them long ways, then taped them in place over just the lobes with skinney masking tape to be pulled easily with long reach needle nose pliers. I have never found a way to load a cam without dragging lobes in bearing bores. This worked really well and I am saving the protective sleeve for gas engines later.

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Reach and grab between two lobes and it comes right out. It seemed to work very well. I am confident I did not contact the lobes on the bearing bores. You can rotate the cam by hand and pour assembly lube on each lobe through the tappet bores.

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Coating the exhaust parts with cerakote C7600 glacier black ceramic coating. It is good for 1800 degrees. It is a satin almost flat finish when dry. It is a weak coating when curing, a couple days it becomes very durable. I use this stuff a lot on car parts.

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The block waiting for some last parts. I pre painted old construction yellow in places that will be difficult to spray later. Like behind the injection pump etc.

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When you order an oil pump, they sub to one of these below. Even for older motors like the 202 you will most likely get one with an upward angled block feed tube. The change is the oil tube that enters the block has to have 2 bends. The OEM original tube was a simple 90 degree bend tube.
Inserted just to show the angle, here is the original pump.

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The new oil pump with a different angle for the tube. I am not sure why they changed this. I had a hard time finding the part number for the double bend tube. Everybody just said "use double bend tube" on their websites. I will post a picture of the tube and it's part number when it arrives.

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I have degreased the frame rails, crossmember and clutch bellhousing. I had a good sized pile of grease and dirt on the floor.
I painted more parts yellow yesterday. It takes all day to make enough heat in the shop to paint. I wish I could do the whole machine.
Lavoy is helping me find a quality injection pump shop. The shop he uses has a test bench and can run and set the pump up correctly. Lavoy is also helping me with a new quality turbocharger. The injection pump will go out Monday to him.
Thanks Lavoy for the help there.

Happy New Year everyone...
Al
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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