Help removing/dismantling a 450C starter

[kilohertz]

Tried to get the faulty starter out of my '81 450C crawler today, no luck, well 50% luck. I got the top bolt out easy, but for the life of me, I couldn't get the bottom bolt out, my arm just can't get down there to get the swivel socket on the nut.

So I am wondering if the starter can be dismantled in place, ie remove the case and armature so I can get at the bottom nut? I have rebuilt lots of starters but can't remember if there is a circlip on the armature, or if there is something with the bendix fork that would prevent the armature from coming out. I looked for an hour for a manual or video showing a 28MT rebuild, couldn't find one.

Help please! Can the starter case and armature be removed while in the machine?

Thank you

[B Town]

Well I have been there several times. That bottom bolt is a PITA. I have worked on machines where the bottom fastener is a stud with lock washer and nut(this seems to be better than the bolt). The real JD wrench for the 300 series engine-starter removal is the JDG725. Kind of $$$. The nut or bolt can be removed with the appropriate length 3/8 extension and a short impact wobble socket, working from in front of the starter and between the engine and frame rails. I have also removed the belly pan to get to that bolt. Yes it seems like a lot , but with the belly pan off it was kids play. Also a good time to remove the debris in the pan.

Best regards, Bruce

[oldmetalmender]

Doing that on the machine won't go well later when it comes time to put it all back together. I recently removed my starter to take my engine out. The lower bolt was so frustrating. I pulled out 4 different wrenches and finally got it to start loose. They make S shaped box end wrenches. I used that and a ratchet open end box end wrench. I know I have that to look forward to soon when I put it together. I would get it pulled. Trying to put the armature back in and hold the brushes back while on the machine will be difficult. Sorry that that is all I have to offer. I wish you luck there.

[kilohertz]

Thanks boys.

Well there's 3' of snow on the ground and it's warming and melting and dripping all over the machine so going under the machine is out of the question I don't know how I would get in there with the JD wrench, I looked at it and I'm not sure how it would help. Today I was using a short u-joint socket, and I could get it onto the nut (yes stud, washer and nut) but couldn't keep it there and get the rachet on the extension and turning etc. If it was sunny and 20 I would have more patience. I really just want to get the starter off as I may go with a new one of the gear reduction units.

So will the case and armature come out leaving the nose cone in place. I should be able to get the solenoid off first as well.

Thanks

[B Town]

I used a nice long extension from under the machine when the belly pan was removed. Like metalmender suggested, you could use a pic of the JDG725 as a pattern and custom bend your own wrench.

I have not known the case/armature to be removable in the way that you want them to be.

[Jim B]

It has been a while since I had one apart but I took a look at the parts catalog to refresh my memory. Looking at the parts catalog it appears like you might disassemble the starter in place, but I don't know how much easier that will end up being. There should be a center bearing support plate that is attached to the nose housing with 4 screws that will prevent removing the armature, until you remove those screws, as the drive is on the other side of the support plate. It also shows there is supposed to be a washer and clip on the end of the shaft beyond the drive. You may need to remove the fuel pump to get room enough to get it apart. Then it will still take some wiggling.

I have used rubber bands or a loose wrap or two of tape around the outside of the joint to limit travel of u-joint sockets when they get floppy. Some times a short piece or two of tape across the socket opening so it will be tight when it pushes (Tight enough to need to tap on the extension to get it all the way on) over the bolt head helps keep the socket in place while you get the ratchet on the extension. I have built some home made wrenches to fit for such projects over the years as well. As mentioned there are some photos of the JDG725 on the web and there is one for sale on eBay, but not cheap.

[DrLoch]

I bought the wrench, no love. Maybe got the wrong wrench but I ended up using extensions and a universal socket which worked the best.

[kilohertz]

Okay well thank you everybody for your help, it sounds like I should just leave it together and get that bottom bolt out and remove it intact.

I'll have another go it once it stops raining. Is a sloppy mess outside now, rain on top of 3' of snow. The tin roof on the shop shed it's snow taking out the wood stove chimney so that will give me something to do today.

Cheers

[B Town]

Use an impact swivel socket if you have one. That worked better for me than the u joint knuckle swivel. It is possible to remove the nut by using a fine tooth ratchet, the exact right length extension, swivel, thin arm/hand bxt the engine and frame rail, fishing from the front side of the machine where the engine cover is located. First one I did(lower starter nut) was about 1/2 hr to get off and 1 hour to put back on. It took all kinds of tricks to get it back on, like the aforementioned wrapping of the swivel, grease/paper to hold the nut in the socket etc...!

[kilohertz]

I'm heading to town to get chimney and flashing so I'll stop by my friends shop and borrow an impact swivel socket, have another go at this weekend.

Appreciate all the guidance. I don't recall my 350 starter being as difficult, this must be a bigger starter.

Cheers

[oldmetalmender]

I know you found your solution by now. I put my starter in yesterday and it was not easy. The lower bolt is just out of finger reach. And you can't turn a wrench any significant amount to even get a bolt started. I tried just about everything and the solution was a 3/8 drive with 2 feet of extension with a snapon 9/16 short universal (one of the few snapon tools I own) while laying on the floor.

While looking at green parts special servicegard tools page I found there are no less than 5 special wrenches for that lower bolt. If you pull up the page, click view all, then go up to the 14th row of tools from the bottom of the page. This is for anyone else trying to get past this same challenge. I suspect the long extension with the offset box end welded to it would work best. S turn wrenches are limited by the tight access.

https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Dee ... Tools.html

[kilohertz]

Yes, I actually updated the story in the thread about the destroyed starter. It turns out there is a hole in the side frame which I didn't see at first, but once I saw it, took 10 minutes to get the starter out. Going back in the bottom bolt was actually easier for me to get on, 5 minutes, the top nut took 15 minutes to wiggle back in. I had to undo the bottom bolt some and pull the starter back out as far as I could, then there was enough room to get the impact socket with the nut attached, into position and started on the top thread. I was sure happy to hear it fire right up, sure spins over fast now, even faster when I remember to push in the clutch.

Glad you managed to get yours fixed as well. Mine starts just fine now with about 1 hour on the new block heater in -8C weather.

Now onto the rest of the things that need fixin', track adjuster seals, lights etc.

Cheers

[Johntc23]

After bending the wrench "just right" and the 12 point socket on the extension with minute movement for each knuckle scrape, my 450 finally gave up the starter so it could be rebuilt. The supposedly smaller, easier to install gear reduction starter wouldn't bolt up, that was frustrating. But when it was out, time was spent chasing the threads, lubing the holes so the bolts would go in and out smoothly. Then I called the wife with the little hands, Hey sweetheart while I hold this up could you turn these bolts in? Starter was reinstalled in minutes, just had to put final pressure on bolts. Not to mention how happy she was to get to contribute. Just a though.

[dtoots1]

seems that they have had that access hole in frame for bottom bolt of starter since at least the 2010 models, and is kinda hard to find, but once person gets idea of what it is for makes life a bit easier, don't have large fingers and hands so could even get bolt started by finger..long as cleaned up.