78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

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gaspumpsam
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Re: 78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

Post by gaspumpsam » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:24 am

I just posted a suggestion but it seems it didn’t show up here, so will try again.
Seems like the machinery gremlins have been at work on your machine while it has been sitting!! :lol: :lol:
I would remove all jumper cables, and ground cable from batteries, just as safety while your hands in tight spots on engine, while trouble shooting problem.

Put a mark on front crank pulley, and if you can, use fan to see if you can roll engine, problem problem is not with engine,if you can’t , remove starter and use bar and roll engine in normal rotation and see how far it will roll ( at least one rev) if it comes up tight ( solid) before one rev, roll it backwards and see if will roll the same amount. If it won’t roll more than one rev, do what you have to, to remove all injectors, then roll by hand, and see if liquid of some kind comes out of injector hole. Then install starter, and gently jog, until no more liquid comes out of holes and engine will rotate very fast/easy.
If it’s water, it is from no rain cap, if coolant- decision time .

Hope this helps. Remember safety protocol when trouble shooting!!

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Re: 78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

Post by Jim B » Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:05 pm

Just kicking some thoughts around.

I know you said you went direct to the starter with booster cables. I will say I have seen engines not turn over using that method due to cable size, condition, connections, etc. Just to be double sure I would go over all the cables, hot and ground, and the connections. The starter to motor ground should be good since you recently changed the starter. If you try to turn it over and hold it in a few seconds when it stops turning, quickly feel the cable connections, a warm/hot connection is a sign of a problem. Try running a booster cable from a starter mounting bolt to a battery negative post, that would help if it is loosing ground somewhere, not that I think that is likely, but it is easy to try.

It was running fine when the hose blew you said. So I take it you shut it down and it stopped as normal when you saw the blown hose. If the engine shutdown was as normal, not a stall, that doesn't point to engine issues as a starting point to me. It didn't run out of hydraulic oil by the time you stopped did it? If it did and this is the first you have tried to start it since it might have damaged the hydraulic pump. I have to agree with LeonardL, unhooking the pump is about the only way to rule that out. Your pump drive should be this type. https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sid ... gId/223838. I don't believe it will be any fun getting to it on a loader, my dozer was bad enough.

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Re: 78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

Post by Wgarner1414 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:11 pm

Ok guys came home from work today and messed with the loader some more. Looked at the hydraulic pump and of course no pump disconnect and with loader arms down no way of removing nose. Decided to try battery fresh off the charge and same thing, it turns over about 2-1/2 revolutions slow before stalling causing jumper cables to heat quickly. Did it a few times letting it cool in between tries and it finally turned over fast enough to start. Idled rough due to air in lines from breaking lines loose checking injectors. Cleared up and ran smooth. I let it run for about 20 minutes and raised the bucket up so I could block it up with cylinder blocks so I can get to things now. Hydraulics worked fine had to add a little due to the hose replacement. Loader drove, shifted and went In both forward and reverse with no issues. Turned it off and same thing slow turn over and causing cables to heat up. These are heavy cables not little Walmart ones not as large as original main power cable going to starter but sufficient. I will try turning it over by fan and see how hard it is to turn. I’m going to order enough cable to redo the battery cables as they are pretty old and needing to be replaced. Will see if that helps any. Any other ideas now that it has started up to what could be causing slow crank?

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Re: 78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

Post by shinnery » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:51 pm

Bad new starter? Is the new starter from the land of almost right?
No trees were hurt in the creation of this message.
But, many electrons were terribly bothered.

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Re: 78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

Post by gregjo1948 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:46 am

Wgarner1414 wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:23 am
Gregjo

I would agree no starting fluid has been used. Won’t turn fast enough to warrant it lol. Only ever used starting fluid a few times since I’ve owned it when it had sat a long time in cold temps. So I don’t think that’s the problem
I wasn't accusing you; I was just saying.
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Re: 78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

Post by jsal » Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:26 am

had a problem on a three clyinder in a 302 tractor were it would turn over very slowly was the fuel injection pump was full of fine particles I ended up breaking the pump drive shaft as the pump ended up being seized up then it would turn over might try removing your injection pump to see if it makes a difference

JIM

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Re: 78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

Post by DrLoch » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:46 am

Internet troubleshooting is difficult...... At one point I was with LeonardL and a hydraulic. If you have a voltmeter connect to the positive terminal of the starter and starter ground and see what the voltage does. If you are going to replace the battery cables consider getting welding cable it is a heck of a lot more flexible. Amazon has it, they also have the lugs.
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LeonardL
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Re: 78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

Post by LeonardL » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:08 am

I agree with DrLoch... Check your voltage as he suggested. If your machine finally did start and run without any issue from hydraulics or otherwise, then it just about has to be electrical. Grounding is huge on any equipment but these older Deere machines are noted to have grounding issues. Especially if you are still using the ground strap in the battery box. I also agree with earlier statements on using jumper cables. Even if they are the big ones. You loose a lot of amperage though the length of the cables. I would do as DrLoch has suggested with making new cables and run your ground direct from the battery to the engine block. If that doesn't work then take a good look at your new starter. Especially if it is a Chinese starter. ( Aka. "From the land of almost right." :D That's awesome!! ) I have seen those things have solenoids that would not let enough voltage through to energize the fields. Thus causing a draggy starter. They will show okay on a bench test but fail under a load when actually trying to start the machine.
40 plus years working on JD 350s, 400Gs, 450s and other equipment both Ag and Construction.

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Re: 78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

Post by Wgarner1414 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:08 am

Thanks guys for all of the suggestions.

Checking the voltage at battery it drops to around 10v when cranking. 12.6-12.9v when not trying to start. I will check from starter positive to ground and see what that reads.

Could be bad starter. It’s from DBelectrical so typically pretty good reputation. The first one sounded rough when I took it off to bench test so I sent it back for warranty.

Haven’t thought about injector pump. I need to find some copper injector line washers anyway as I have a small leak. I’ve bought the factory seek ones but they tend to keep trying to leak. I might need to remove the injector pump and see if that frees engine up.

Plan on going to 2/0 welding cable as suggested and running ground directly to motor somewhere instead of the current location in the battery compartment sheet metal. Love Amazon I order everything from there lol. I plan on doing this first before diving any deeper into it.

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Re: 78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

Post by DrLoch » Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:43 am

Connecting the ground to the engine instead of the battery box is a good idea. FYI the gear reduction starters starters spin the motors faster than the conventional starters do, and they are less expensive. The part number I got was a 140-915 6570.

Also, if you remove the injector pump and spin the motor routine make sure you put it back on correctly. My thought, if the injector pump was dragging the motor down the shaft would have snapped once you go it running.
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LeonardL
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Re: 78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

Post by LeonardL » Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:22 am

DrLoch wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:43 am
Connecting the ground to the engine instead of the battery box is a good idea. FYI the gear reduction starters starters spin the motors faster than the conventional starters do, and they are less expensive. The part number I got was a 140-915 6570.

Also, if you remove the injector pump and spin the motor routine make sure you put it back on correctly. My thought, if the injector pump was dragging the motor down the shaft would have snapped once you go it running.
I totally agree with DrLoch on the injector pump!!! I really do not think it is the issue here. If an injector pump is dragging or bad in any way then you most likely would not have gotten it to run. Especially as good as you have indicated. If I understood you correctly you said it ran fine once it did start? The injector pump is a simple but still very precision piece of your puzzle. If one is dragging to the point of slowing the cranking speed then it most likely will not function to make your engine run. Or at least not run very well. I'm still thinking it will end up being electrical in nature. Either cables, connections or the starter. I would also take a really good look at your battery. I've seen those give a false sense of being okay when they're not. I have had them show 12 volts but when under a load they die quickly.
40 plus years working on JD 350s, 400Gs, 450s and other equipment both Ag and Construction.

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Re: 78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

Post by Wgarner1414 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:33 pm

Dr loch I am thinking the same thing. That is the same starter I purchased as well. 2/0 welding cable is on the way so I’ll see how that does.

LeonardL yes it ran as god as normal once it was started. No issues at all. I’m hoping it’s cables that’s causing the issue. Battery is brand new so not a problem there. Tested with another known good battery and same thing. It is only a single battery hook up but cranked fine with an even smaller battery prior to buying the bigger one a few months ago so never saw a need to run dual batteries. I’m hoping it’s just the cables.

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Re: 78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

Post by Jim B » Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:24 pm

Glad to hear it was running ok once it started. It sounds like a cable issue, so replacing them will eliminate that. Does your have a master electrical disconnect switch in the battery box? If so try bypassing it by hooking both cables on it to just one post on the switch. I have seen those go bad.

About 10 volts at the battery cranking sounds a bit low to me, likely it was less than that at the starter. It would be interesting to see what you get there. The drop may be in the cables but I'm curious about what the specs on your battery; cold cranking amps at 0 degrees and the reserve rating. The parts catalog calls for 2 each group 30H, 12 volt, 570 CC at 0 degrees F, 180 minute reserve at 25 amps.

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Re: 78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

Post by Wgarner1414 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:02 pm

Jim it does have master switch so I will try that if cables don’t correct. The loader originally had a single car type battery. I upgraded to a car quest battery with following specs.

BCI Group Size: 31T
Cold Cranking Amperage: 950 A
Cranking Amperage: 1185 A
Negative Terminal Location: Top Right
Positive Terminal Location: Top Left
Reserve Capacity: 175 min
Terminal Type: Top Mount
Voltage: 12.0 VDC

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Re: 78 450c won’t turn over but one revolution?

Post by LeonardL » Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:53 pm

Your group 31 battery should be okay as long as it is for sure okay. Most of the dual battery configurations were meant for colder climates. You being in Georgia you should be more than warm enough for that battery to work. A lot of these machines were sold with two batteries in them when they really didn't need more than one. There were times when I thought it just depended on the day at the factory whether they got one or two batteries. It was meant to be an option but we never knew exactly what we were getting until they showed up. I have seen lots of these 350 / 450's use a single group 24 battery and do just fine. Even with the old starters that came out on the machines. I have a JD 1520 Ag tractor that I put a 3179 engine in that came from a 350D crawler. I use a group 24 battery on it because of the room I have in the battery box. It does okay and I live in mid Missouri. It can get pretty darn cold here at times and it has always cranked right up.

That being said I agree with Jim when he said he thought 10 volts was a bit weak. I have seen new batteries be junk right out of the box. I am however skeptical that it is the issue. Jim may also be onto something with the master switch. I'm getting old and had forgotten about those lovely things as they will cause issues. I'm glad Jim thought of it. Like everyone else I will be curious what it does once you bypass the switch and or you get the new cables on it.
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