450B problem

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timmtnman
440 crawler
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Location: Sylva NC

Re: 450B problem

Post by timmtnman » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:46 pm

Wanted to give an update. Started the dozer up a week ago and started putting out antifreeze again. I pulled the head and gasket was blown on number 4. Luckily it never got in the oil. Head had a slight warp on that end. Had it machined and put new valves in it. Hope to get it back together this weekend.

timmtnman
440 crawler
440 crawler
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Location: Sylva NC

Re: 450B problem

Post by timmtnman » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:09 pm

Got it back together today and started the break in procedure so I can go back and retorque head bolts and adjust valves again. Pushed dirt back and forth for 30 to 40 minutes, ran great the whole time. But at the end it started running rough like a fuel problem. RPMs would bounce up and down. Where should I start looking at for the problem. I have previously cleaned the tank out, put new filters on from napa, ran it some and then put new deere filters on it. Return line checks out good. Put a new primer pump on also. Took fuel cap off when it started this and that didnt help either. Where do I begin now.

Jim B
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Re: 450B problem

Post by Jim B » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:26 pm

Put a clean rag under the injection pup timing window and carefully remove the timing window from the side of the injection pump. See if there are any small pellets (mouse turds) behind the cover or fall out in the fuel. If there are any, it is a sign the pellethane ring is breaking up and the pump needs an overhaul. The other place the pellets will show up is in the pump side of the check valve where the return line connects to the injection pump. The return line can be clear but the check valve plugged making the pressure inside the pump too high. Loosening the timing window cover while running will let fuel leak out and if it runs better with it loose it is another clue the return is plugged and the pump needs overhaul.

timmtnman
440 crawler
440 crawler
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Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 3:44 pm
Location: Sylva NC

Re: 450B problem

Post by timmtnman » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:15 pm

Thanks Jim, I will check those things out.

timmtnman
440 crawler
440 crawler
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 3:44 pm
Location: Sylva NC

Re: 450B problem

Post by timmtnman » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:48 pm

Took the timing cover off and had a few mouse turds come out. Anybody know of a good reasonable priced shop. I'm in NC. Has anyone tried DCP out of Memphis TN.

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jsal
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Re: 450B problem

Post by jsal » Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:27 am

most reasonable pricing I would go with them shop in my area is over 600.00


JIM

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77 Ford
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Location: Missouri

Re: 450B problem

Post by 77 Ford » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:15 am

I had one done at DCP in memphis, could not be happier
JD- 450C track loader
Serial #208336T

timmtnman
440 crawler
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Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 3:44 pm
Location: Sylva NC

Re: 450B problem

Post by timmtnman » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:20 pm

Thanks for the in put. Got the pump off today. Got it top dead center and put the pin in the flywheel, the timing Mark's where a shade off, not sure if that was normal. Anyone know of any tricks to get it slid back on over the rubber seals without a special tool.

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LeonardL
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Re: 450B problem

Post by LeonardL » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:16 pm

I have done probably a couple hundred of these and have never used the special tool. The way I've always done them is pretty simple. I always remove the injector lines and have them completely out of the way. There is nothing worse than trying to fight those things while reinstalling a pump. I have tried and succeeded but the time I waisted in the process was more than if I would have just taken the stupid things off in the first place.

The cup seal facing the pump is the one to worry about. It is cup first or cup lip towards the pump. What I do is lube the inside of the pump with a light oil or some light grease. Engine set up grease works great. What ever you use just a light coating is all you need. I then start the pump onto the shaft and get it up as close to the first seal as possible. Then I use my fingers to work the lip of the seal inside the pump while holding light forward pressure on the pump as I work the seal in. Once it starts in I check it with a mirror on all sides to make sure the lip of the seal hasn't turned backwards. Once I have it in and know it's okay I will slide the pump on a bit more and then move it back and forth a little just to make sure it is going to slide the rest of the way without issue. The second seal which is apposed to the first, cup towards the motor, should then go right inside without much fuss. Take your time and be as gentle as you can. Not an easy task but as I said, I've done a boat load of them this way. If you're not sure once it goes in then slide it back carefully and check it. If the lip is turned backwards it will usually show up with your mirror. When it is in properly you should only see the rounded back side of the cup.

Make sure you have your O-ring on the pump flange first and foremost! I've made that mistake a couple of times when being in a hurry. Hurry will always bite you on the butt!! Others will probably differ from my approach and that's okay. I'm just saying how I do them. Good luck! :D
40 plus years working on JD 350s, 400Gs, 450s and other equipment both Ag and Construction.

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77 Ford
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Re: 450B problem

Post by 77 Ford » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:26 am

I used a zip tie to compress the first seal and get it good and started and then like above just very carefully wiggled and jiggled it on.
JD- 450C track loader
Serial #208336T

timmtnman
440 crawler
440 crawler
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 3:44 pm
Location: Sylva NC

Re: 450B problem

Post by timmtnman » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:02 pm

Thanks 77 Ford, very helpful information. Do you put the zip tie on normal or backwards so you can slip it back off without having to cut it.

timmtnman
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440 crawler
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Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 3:44 pm
Location: Sylva NC

Re: 450B problem

Post by timmtnman » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:49 pm

Also does it matter if the timing marks are aligned perfectly. With the tdc pin in it was a shade off. Is it better to remove the pin and adjust timing Mark's up before removing or just leave the pin in and remove with it being a shade off. Is it best to get the seals from deere or somewhere else. Do I need the the seal on the end of the pump or does that come with the rebiuld.

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77 Ford
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Re: 450B problem

Post by 77 Ford » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:46 am

There should be a small amount of adjustment in the pump itself. I would leave the pin and rotate the pump to TDC. If it's off more than that, I'm not sure what to say. I just pushed the zip tie off the seal and when it was loose out of the way clipped it. I had one that was about 3/8" wide that worked pretty well. I do not recall the seal, but I know I purchased extra umbrella seals in case I tore one going in. I did not want to hang the project after waiting for the pump to return. Using the zip tie does not replace the need for patience and lubrication as described above.
JD- 450C track loader
Serial #208336T

timmtnman
440 crawler
440 crawler
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 3:44 pm
Location: Sylva NC

Re: 450B problem

Post by timmtnman » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:03 pm

Thanks 77 Ford

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DrLoch
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Re: 450B problem

Post by DrLoch » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:50 am

Pump will only go in/on one of two ways, correct or 180 degrees off since it's the tang on the end of the driveshaft that goes into the distributor rotor assembly. Lining up the pin in the flywheel and the mark in the window is to insure you aren't 180 degrees off on your injector timing. If you look at the end of the drive shaft it should have a dot or dimple on it, if you look into the pump at the shaft end you should see a dot/dimple in one of the tang slots of the distributor rotor assembly. The dots or dimples must match up. You adjust or twist the IP body after it is mounted up to fine adjust the injector timing if need be.

The dot/dimple method works when you can't spin the engine and get it to TDC on the inject. Your either correct or incorrect by 180.

There is more to setting the exact timing, i've given the Readers Digest condensed version.

Not having read the whole thread, I generally put marks on the edge of the IP housing and the mating surface and line them back up when reinstalling the pumps.
450C Track Loader
291457T

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