3325 WINCH input shaft seal replacement issue

[Jack-the-Ripper]

Issue: replace leaking seal.

I removed the quill that holds the input shaft. Pressed inside the quill is the seal (AT14831) and pressed on top of that is the bearing cup (JD8230).

Problem: It appears that the outside diameter of the seal is just a bit bigger than the inside diameter of the cup. It looks like a small nightmare to remove the seal (no lip available to punch it out) but looks like a major pain to remove the bearing cup (again, minimum lip upon which to push, or pull).

It is hard to believe that anyone would design a seal that required the bearing cup to be removed first, and then not create some way to remove all this without destroying the cup. (I took a rear axle to my local automotive machine shop and the bearing had to be destroyed to replace that seal.). Am I missing something? I just hate to waste a perfectly good bearing.

Has anyone confronted this situation, and is there some "pulling" mechanism that I can fabricate and insert to remove the cup? Could I be so lucky as to have the new seal "just clear" the bearing cup and preclude its removal? "Micing" the cup I.D. indicates that it may be 0.003" larger than the published O.D. of a replacement seal, but the old seal looks a few thousandths large, meaning the the replacement, if it passes through, would flop around. If that is the case, is there something, like "thick" Permatex that could be used as a filler after the new seal is, somehow, "miraculously" centered?

[Jim B]

I see you mentioned this in Kyjimmy's winch post and since no one has jumped in on this one of yours; I'll throw a few thoughts out. I don't see any procedure to change just the seal in my 450E manual (uses the 3325 winch). The manual has the seal being installed first during reassembly. I can't see how much lip of the bearing cup is exposed to grab (and I'm not going to pull mine apart to see ). Try removing the old seal through the bearing cup. If it comes out, try dropping the new seal in. If it goes through the cup without dragging you should be ok. If you have to drive it through the cup I would say no. Whether or not you have, or can fabricate, the right puller to catch any lip of the race available to pull it is something you have to decide. Likewise you will have to decide if you think you can get the seal in and out through the bearing cup, and not damage the seal or cup, without removing the cup. If the cup and cone are good you can likely get away with just replacing the cup if you get one with numbers that match, and ideally the same brand, as the one you remove. Not ideal, but may be a quicker turn around. If they are not good they need to be changed anyway. If you get the seal out by the cup and if you get the seal in without damaging or distorting it so it leaks, you will have saved about $5.00 for a bearing cup from JD (the cone is about $11.00 from JD if you had to change both). Shims appear to be NLA so you might need to make those, or a construction dealer may have info that doesn't show in the catalog. Also look at the seal area on the shaft for wear to see if you need a Speedi-Sleeve on it.

As for having to destroy the bearing to change the seal, the engineers may have figured play in the bearing was the most likely cause of seal damage so pulling the cup was a non-issue as it would be replaced. I have seen many such scenarios over the years. As for using thick Permatex to hold the seal centered, kinds of fits in the I won't mind doing this again category. Where are you getting the replacement seal that is a different OD so you are thinking you need Thick Permatex to hold it in place, I be looking for the right size seal. JMHO and some thoughts.
Jim

[Jack-the-Ripper]

Hi Jim, I appreciate your input.

The seal on order came up on a google search "Input shaft seal for JD 3325 winch." It supposedly replaces quite a few other seals on the machine as well. I got the seal's O.D. dimension from the web listing, and then measured my bearing race with a caliper where it seems that I might have about .003" diameter clearance. However when I look at my existing one, it looks like my seal is slightly too big to pass through the race's I.D. hole. I packed the seal/race with heavy grease and reassembled to keep the rest of the oil from leaking out and to tilt the winch back level for safety. I've never heard of a Speedi-Sleeve but certainly have needed one a few times. I'll follow that up. Seems that the race is cheap enough that I should just have one on hand before I begin disassembly.

The shaft surface looks surprisingly good, so far, as does the inside of the winch that I can see through the input shaft hole and oil filler hole, considering the beat-up exterior of this winch that has 35 years of logging work on it. This winch may never have even been opened up. I've had the tractor about 15 years and never had occasion to use the winch, I just "lug it along" behind the dozer, but the input shaft turns all the time so the seal needs to work. Its rubber surface is hardened and the typical sharp edge seems worn away. I've found that taking my Grand Cherokee on long dusty desert roads eats up all the drive train seals, and the outside of this one has been subjected to lots of years of oil soaked dirt and grit. I do have the option of just leaving the winch off.

In the bigger picture, I'm trying to fix all the oil leaks (maybe 20) on my 450B, 450C, and Case 580 backhoe. Even the Komatsu excavator needs a cylinder rebuilt. In all its quite daunting in spite of my significant mechanical and engineering skills, making me want to think about easiest ways of doing it before I just start tearing it all apart.

Thanks again for your interest and support.
Ralph

[Jim B]

John Deere says AT14831 is for a 1.375" shaft, .500" thick, 2.254" OD, single lip, nitrile, garter spring. How does that compare with what you got?

[Jack-the-Ripper]

Mine came from Yesterday's Tractor Company
#70241779 "JD PTO Shaft Seal" on the invoice.
I.D. 1.130"
O.D. 2.127"
Solid rubber seal without the usual spring.

It looks like the I.D. will work on the 1.375" shaft.
It looks like it will also fit through the I.D. of the bearing race (measured at 2.133"), but will be too small to replace the existing seal. Maybe I can use some shim stock, but purchasing the correct seal and cup may be the best move.

The 2.254" Original Equipment that you cite looks more like the existing one that I am looking at.

Normally I'd just bang out the race, destructively tear out the old seal, and simply replace in the proper order.

The inner lip in the race that one might engage to pull it is a mere few thousandths - maybe more that I can drive against after the seal is pulled. Maybe I can weld a "handle" on it that I can clamp into the vise. There is no exposed surface to drive out the seal, which will hit the race anyway. Egads! I'll figure something out. I was hoping that someone had already faced this problem.

Thanks again for the interest and suggestions.

[Jim B]

So, it turns out you have a wrong seal you were measuring while trying to decide if it would fit through the bearing cup. Things like seals fit in different places so it is not totally unknown to receive one labelled for something else from an aftermarket source. And sometimes things are just plain labelled/packaged wrong. For the record 70241779 is the part number for an Allis Chalmers PTO seal from any info I find on line, I have 5 AC tractors that call for that seal number. I cannot explain things from YT. I can see that 1.130" from 1.375" is .240" smaller ID. I doubt it would last long on a 1.375" shaft. I won't even get into trying to shim a seal that is over 1/8" small on the OD in place, not leak, stay centered, and have last. (The dimensions don't match the crawler power shaft seal (AT11676) dimensions I found either.) I don't know what you gave them for info, if they or you picked this seal, and how they came to send you this part number. Sorry your having this problem and wish I had a better answer for you. I suggest you contact YT and see if they have an explanation and a fix for the seal.

Seeing the dimensions you posted, I would not even consider trying to use that seal, I don’t care to do the rework required when such shortcut fixes fail. I would get the right seal and put it in properly, even if it meant replacing the cup (and cone if it shows any defects). You have the labor of pulling the winch done; put it back on and the seal leaks, you have to do it all again and purchase the right seal and cup anyway.

Looking at your profile shows you joined years ago and I would expect you know this site is provided to us by Lavoy and his store. He has, or can get, the right parts for JD crawlers. If he can't he will tell you so and offer suggestions. If you have a problem with something he sells, he has hands on experience, and is a phone call away to support what he sells. In the future you might consider contacting Lavoy to see if he can supply you the right parts. I just think Lavoy is a better source for JD crawler parts. My apologies if this sounds harsh, not intended as such nothing against you or YT; this is just my honest opinions about the seal and using Lavoy’s site.

[Jack-the-Ripper]

Thank you Jim,

All good advice and lovingly taken.

The winch is my lowest priority, and I will wait until I get the proper parts as you suggest before proceeding further. As an aside, I originally searched JD 3325 Input Shaft Seal and YTs listing came up. I'll send a note to them about the discrepancy in their listing.

I sent a note to Lavoy regarding permission to post pictures but will follow up and ask him for the proper winch parts at the same time.

Meanwhile I'm working outdoors on the 450C left track drive problem, and several leaks on both the "C" and "B," in the S.F. Bay Area where we are having unseasonable, but always welcome, rain that is modulating my efforts to get these dozers back into shape.

I appreciate your willingness to "be there" to bounce off ideas. Sometimes we can get "lost in the weeds" of a repair on old equipment and need a refuge of sanity to avoid doing stupid things.