450C intermittent track power

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Jack-the-Ripper
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450C intermittent track power

Post by Jack-the-Ripper » Mon May 04, 2020 7:35 pm

Wow, its been 10 years since I left 60 acres of treed tractor heaven in North Idaho, where I had ample reasons to share the company of fellows here on the board, and moved the tractors to Napa, CA where there isn't much tractor work on my 0.6 acre plot of pavement. (I am available "for hire" to tear up the property of others.)

Problem: My 450CC left track drives intermittently and with less than full power, apparently (no hills or trees to push against here). It caused me to flip off the trailer. Left brake works normally.

This tractor worked consistently and heavily for me for several years before this problem emerged, so it may be just wear. Sometimes the track engages, and sometimes it doesn't, (forward and reverse), about half the time for each. There has developed a significant leak seemingly from the top of the bottom cover of the final drive or maybe a seal somewhere else above. Could that be relevant? I have the proper parts catalog and technical manual for the "C", and I have the prior experience of completely rebuilding the steering clutches, tracks, rollers, etc. on my 450B.

The right track on the "C" seems to pull just fine. My inclination is just to tear apart the left wet clutch area, and "see what's wrong." But it is a lot of work and I'm 10 years older. Before I do this, I'm wondering if there are any tests, like a pressure test on the hydraulic line that releases the steering clutch, to do first? I can't find anything like that in the technical manual, or searching herein.

Do I have to remove the track and final drive to inspect/replace the steering clutch? I've read here, and in the manual, about creating a "common sump." Assuming that has already been done, will that affect how many "chambers" I have to drain before I take the final drive and clutch apart? I'm not clear on the purpose of that. Is there anything more I need to know about it that would affect my repair process?

Also, in looking for the "master pin" to split the track rail, all my track link pins have an identical dimple! Should I be trying some other way to identify the "right" one to remove, or does this mean that they are all the same? Sometimes I think I'm getting too old for this stuff.

I appreciate any opinions, experience and advice y'all might like to share.
Last edited by Jack-the-Ripper on Tue May 05, 2020 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
JD450C (Jack the Ripper), JD450B (Jill the Wench), KomatsuPC120 (Ursa, The Big Dipper), Case580E (Ida Hoe), International 4400 Dump Truck

rufustoad
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Re: 450C intermittent track power

Post by rufustoad » Mon May 04, 2020 7:59 pm

Hi Jack,
I just watched a documentary on the real Jack the ripper (NOT PRETTY) :lol: Even the smartest nut jobs mess up in the end.

Last week I just tore down both sides of my 450C and replaced the bands and looked at my clutches. I originally started this project because of the same scenario you just gave, my left side stopped pulling. When I got the battery compartment off and pulled the plate off I decided to start mine (making sure to be safe and set brake and make double sure your in neutral) only to find that the feed hose that supplies the clutches hydraulic pressure had sprung a leak. Had I not started it I would not have seen this leak. You may start there especially if you are seeing oil leaking out it could be spraying and causing that leak.

Yes the master pin has a dimple and not hard to see.

Does your trans dipstick have a vent type cap on it?? This is what they mean about the shared sumps. The oil is still separate for the most part but now they have taken the vent tubes out of the clutch pistons so each drive so all the sumps share a common vent.

Hope this helped.
I have a lot of pics that might be useful but not really sure how to post on this web.
God Bless
Todd

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Jack-the-Ripper
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Re: 450C intermittent track power

Post by Jack-the-Ripper » Tue May 05, 2020 8:07 am

Hi Todd,

Wow, what an awesome hint, I'll check for that today.

And thanks for the nice simple explanation for the common vent issue.

I have no trouble seeing the very obvious dimple, its just that all the pins in the chain have the same dimple. Sounds like the start of a "whodunit" movie.

Hopefully my fate, and that of my "C," is not the same as its namesake!

Ralph
JD450C (Jack the Ripper), JD450B (Jill the Wench), KomatsuPC120 (Ursa, The Big Dipper), Case580E (Ida Hoe), International 4400 Dump Truck

dtoots1
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Re: 450C intermittent track power

Post by dtoots1 » Tue May 05, 2020 8:36 am

Ruustoad,
If you have not read the Q&A forum where the info to the "pic server" is located...it is at the bottom of the board index page, once you have logged in to the jdcrawler site..only registered users of the site can access that portion...

You simply have to send email to Lavoy, at postmaster@jdcrawlers.com with your chosen login and password for the "pic server" site he will then notify you when authorized to access the site.

If you have any questions or need help advise and can get back to you....

you can not upload pics to the server from cell phones...

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Jack-the-Ripper
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Re: 450C intermittent track power

Post by Jack-the-Ripper » Fri May 08, 2020 11:39 am

Thanks rufustoad, I'll try to post some pix of my process.

I have removed the left steering clutch cover, there is plenty of oil, the space seems very clean and almost pristine (compared to the rusty disaster of my 450B clutch packs).

I ran the engine and activated the left steering lever as Todd suggested, and don't see any obvious indication of a clutch hose leak, but also no evidence of clutch movement. Maybe I have to drain the oil to see this. There was a very small "boil" of bubbles, with no agitation. I'll try that again today giving it more time to develop.

I usually disassemble the things I repair and look for something obviously amiss, but I'm not sure what I might be looking for with this wet clutch. Can the "Cs" clutch pack be removed without removing the final drive and housing? My manual doesn't seem to address this. Should I try to measure the hydraulic pressure on the clutch plate when the lever is in "drive" position?

Thanks
Ralph
Last edited by Jack-the-Ripper on Sat May 09, 2020 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
JD450C (Jack the Ripper), JD450B (Jill the Wench), KomatsuPC120 (Ursa, The Big Dipper), Case580E (Ida Hoe), International 4400 Dump Truck

rufustoad
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Re: 450C intermittent track power

Post by rufustoad » Fri May 08, 2020 1:52 pm

Is this a 450B or C??
God Bless
Todd

Jim B
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Re: 450C intermittent track power

Post by Jim B » Fri May 08, 2020 2:39 pm

Yes, they can be removed without removing the final. Who is the publisher and what is the publication number of the manual you have? The John Deere manuals normally have sections on separation either in General or component specific, often both places.

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Jack-the-Ripper
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Re: 450C intermittent track power

Post by Jack-the-Ripper » Sat May 09, 2020 4:40 am

Edited with additions: Monday May 11, 2020

Hi Jim, thank you for checking in.

I definitely have a "C"; my "B" (that I've previously re-clutched) is sitting right next to it.

My manual is "John Deere 450C Crawler" - TM1102 -Technical Manual. I also have the corresponding parts manual.

I will review it again with a focus on steering clutch removal. I have found the instructions for removing the steering clutch in my manual. It says that the final drive does not need to be removed but the track chain still must be. I'd prefer it was the other way. LOL. It appears I will have to remove the final drive anyway to fix a leak - oh well.

I was wondering if the problem is not enough pressure to the clutch disk through the steering valve, but it seems that it doesn't require flow, just pressure and even a large flow-restriction should apply full hydraulic pressure, eventually. I may check the valve spool anyway since it is easy to do. A pinhole leak from the line to the sump will limit pressure below the max available.

I've run the engine with the steering clutch cover removed. There's no obvious hydraulic hose leak however I have gotten some air bubbles from the clutch center, three at start up, none each time the lever is pulled, and 3-5 when the lever is released, for about 4 cycles, then no more bubbles with further clutch lever cycling.. Don't know what that means - just a data point right now. Looks like I'll proceed with clutch disassembly as weather permits.
JD450C (Jack the Ripper), JD450B (Jill the Wench), KomatsuPC120 (Ursa, The Big Dipper), Case580E (Ida Hoe), International 4400 Dump Truck

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