Saving transmission oil?

Post support questions about your JD350 and newer crawler here
Post Reply
trevelynzx
MC crawler
MC crawler
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:20 am

Saving transmission oil?

Post by trevelynzx » Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:50 pm

hey guys. my 455g probably has about 100 hours on the transmission fluid. but probably 3 yrs old. troubleshooting some drive problems in another thread, and i think i need to dump the trans fluid to clean the sump screen.

possible to empty the fluid and reuse? i’m hesitant to spend the 300$ on 27gal of 15w40 just to rule out one variable.

Jim B
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2080
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am
Location: western Maine

Re: Saving transmission oil?

Post by Jim B » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:44 pm

15W40 in the transmission? I thought it was supposed to be Hy-Gard or other oil meeting JD spec JD20C. If you are running 15W40 and it is supposed to be Hy-Gard, that could be part of the problem. Just a thought.

User avatar
gregjo1948
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 1000
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:58 am
Location: Newark Valley,NY,USA

Re: Saving transmission oil?

Post by gregjo1948 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:52 am

15/40 is a diesel engine weight oil.
JD 350B diesel 6way blade, Case 580B Loader/backhoe, Farmall 504 high crop w/ flail boom mower, International 404 , International 284 diesel w/belly mower, 1972 Ford F600 dump truck, Galion 3-5 roller, Allis Chalmers D17, 1620 Ford

User avatar
Stan Disbrow
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2894
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Saving transmission oil?

Post by Stan Disbrow » Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:54 am

Hi,

I replied in your other thread that I think you have an oil problem. If that is 15/40 in there it is way wrong. And, even if it is something labeled 303, you are still in trouble. All that stuff is garbage. Banned in some states, but unfortunately not in all.

Go to a Deere dealer and buy some actual Hy Gard and either fix it with that or know that the problem isn't the oil.

Buying Trans/Hyd oil elsewhere is OK once you are certain of the specification. But, for troubleshooting an issue like this, I would use the real stuff.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

trevelynzx
MC crawler
MC crawler
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:20 am

Re: Saving transmission oil?

Post by trevelynzx » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:29 pm

Got it. Thanks for the advice guys. I intended to use 15w40 per the chart in the operators manual. But if i do replace i’ll bite the bullet and use Hyguard.

Jim B
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2080
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am
Location: western Maine

Re: Saving transmission oil?

Post by Jim B » Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:01 pm

Well I did some digging and checking as well as looking over my 450E manual again. It does appear 15W40 is permissible if it meets several specifications which are shown in my manual, so I won't dispute the same is in your manual. My apologies for not checking more first. Hy-Gard is listed first in the info I found so I would say it would be preferred, but by the manual you are correct, as long as the 15W40 you are using meets the specs given. So one oil can cover the entire machine. Good info to know, but I will still stay with Hy-Gard or equal in mine everywhere other than the engine which gets 15W40.

You can catch and save the oil you drain but an oil test, taken when warm, and then filtering it when putting it back in would be good steps to take if you want to reuse it.

User avatar
gregjo1948
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 1000
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:58 am
Location: Newark Valley,NY,USA

Re: Saving transmission oil?

Post by gregjo1948 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:14 am

Seem like 15/40 is too heavy for hydraulics and wouldn't stand the heat either. Although, diesel engines , I think, put more pressure on the oil because of the higher compression which would probably put more pressure at the bearings. The more pressure---the more heat too. Does that make sense?
JD 350B diesel 6way blade, Case 580B Loader/backhoe, Farmall 504 high crop w/ flail boom mower, International 404 , International 284 diesel w/belly mower, 1972 Ford F600 dump truck, Galion 3-5 roller, Allis Chalmers D17, 1620 Ford

User avatar
Stan Disbrow
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2894
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Saving transmission oil?

Post by Stan Disbrow » Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:35 am

Hi,

15/40 base stock, the part which is made from crude oil, would be close to hydraulic oil. But, the additive package, the mix of stuff added to the base stock, is quite different. Especially the anti-foaming agent, which hydraulic oil has more and better of.

The engine oils contain detergents to collect byproducts of combustion which sneak past the rings. This is why engine oil turns black. But, detergents will foam in a hydraulic application as the oil goes thru the valves. Foaming results in tiny bubbles in the oil and then pressure is slowly lost as it is used. It de-foams when it sits for a bit.

I would never stick engine oil beyond the old straight weight, non detergent, kind in a hydraulic system. This, regardless of what the manual might say. Some very old manuals, such as my 1950 M tractor, do read out to use the same oil in the hydraulic as the engine. But that was the days of non-detergent straight-weight.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

Jim B
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2080
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am
Location: western Maine

Re: Saving transmission oil?

Post by Jim B » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:56 am

Just for the record here is a scan of the 450E transmission, steering clutches and hydraulic oil lubrication page from the Operator's Manual. Final drives and winch pages show the same info. I am guessing his 455G manual shows similar. I will say not all engine oils may meet the required specs, any more than all UTF meets the J20C spec. Many want to use one oil in everything to prevent problems like people putting hydraulic oil in engines, and these are the specs used to do it. CAT used engine oil in transmissions for years (TO2 is a CAT spec). Personally, I will stay with Hy-Gard or equal, but if his engine oil meets these specs trevelynzx is following JD's recommendations for his transmission.
Image

User avatar
77 Ford
1010 crawler
1010 crawler
Posts: 477
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:52 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Saving transmission oil?

Post by 77 Ford » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:48 am

At -67 this guy is out, having the right oil is not the issue...geeze.
JD- 450C track loader
Serial #208336T

Jim B
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2080
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am
Location: western Maine

Re: Saving transmission oil?

Post by Jim B » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:13 am

Assuming his 15W40 meets the spec, you are correct, it should not be an oil problem. That leaves being sure the screen is clean, doing the adjustments by the manual and the testing and diagnostics to try to pin point the issue as was mentioned in his post "JD 455G Loses Drive".

User avatar
Stan Disbrow
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2894
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Saving transmission oil?

Post by Stan Disbrow » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:55 am

Hi,

I have a document from circa 1980, from Kendall when they were owned by Witco: Lubricants and Hydraulic Fluids - what they do and why. It was written by the late father of a long-time engineering cohort of mine. He was VP of R&D at Kendall, and later Quaker State, until he retired. I have a lot of his papers my friend gave me after his dad passed away. Most of these are well beyond what we'd be talking about, but this one was meant for fleet service managers and is quite applicable.

I have thought about entering this for several years now, whenever we get into such discussions. I think I shall now do it, over in the FAQ board, as a series of posts for the different lubricants. The document is not copyrighted, 34 pages long, and just has 'Printed in USA' and 'Form No. 8417 Rev. 80' by way of markings.

All I can say for this thread is, I figured out long ago that Hydraulic Fluid and Motor Oil are pretty far apart when it comes to how they are formulated and why. So, regardless of this chart out of the machine manual, I would not be sticking a high detergent motor oil into any form of a hydraulic system. Not even a floor jack. ;)

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

trevelynzx
MC crawler
MC crawler
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:20 am

Re: Saving transmission oil?

Post by trevelynzx » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:46 pm

Stan Disbrow wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:35 am
But, detergents will foam in a hydraulic application as the oil goes thru the valves. Foaming results in tiny bubbles in the oil and then pressure is slowly lost as it is used. It de-foams when it sits for a bit.
Guys - thanks so much for the discourse here. It’s all super helpful. What I quoted from Stan above fits my issue rather well. On top of the 455g losing drive after heating up, when I pull the transmission dipstick there are tiny bubbles where the measurement is.

Could it be that the 15w40 is foaming up and causing pressure loss? If so i’d be looking at replacing it with Hy-gard anyway, at which point i’d clean the sump screen as well.

User avatar
Lavoy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 10936
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:32 pm
Location: North Dakota
Contact:

Re: Saving transmission oil?

Post by Lavoy » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:55 am

If Deere recommended it, it is suitable. Deere would never recommended something that would potentially damage thousands, or tens of thousands of transmissions that THEY would have to warranty because they said it can be done. It is not in the manual by mistake, and Deere has a few thousand well paid engineers to develop their products, so really not likely that it is a mistake or misprint in the book.
A quick internet search yielded more hits than I could read in a day, but in a nut shell, I found at least 6 major manufacturers that have been recommending 15w-40 for hydraulics as far back as 1991 (Komatsu).
Spent quite a bit of time with a Conoco petroleum engineer years ago about them successfully testing 15W-40 in combine hydraulics and hydrostatic units. My little Deere mower with a Unitized power unit runs engine oil in the hydrostatic unit, and is not capable of running anything else because it is also the engine oil.
You have stated that you have some sort of transmission problem you think. I am guessing you will still have the problem if you switch to HyGard or any other J20C spec oil.
Personally I would have no preference, but I can buy J20C oil cheaper than I can buy engine oil, so would just run it in your application. I know I have said I don't run J20C in the pre 1965 crawlers, but that is because it howls more, and you forfeit a little bit of pressure in the old gear pumps that were not meant to run it.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 52 guests