JD 4cylinder engine - HELP - WHAT DO I HAVE??

[karbuf]

Last weekend was bad.. Locked up the engine on my 450B FrontLoader (D219)... Found a "good" replacement engine.. Long story short..replacement engine is in great shape but i don't know what I really have! Things that make me wonder -
- Engine Tag is missing
- Head casting is clearly a D219: R57078
- Casting on block is really weird... not in normal location.. it's just above the oil filter but I can't find anything about it: CD-16285 with a "VL" and inch or so after it. It also has "1987" cast into the block
- The fuel injector pump has 3 bolts holding it in (my old D219 has 2) The pump doesn't have a tag but has "Lucas CAV" cast on it.
- No balance shafts. Crank appears to have significant drilling for internal balancing.
HELP!! I don't know how to order parts!

Thanks!
tim.....

[Jim B]

Do you know what machine you replacement engine came from? The prefix CD is used to designate the JD Saran, France location in some places, serial number for one place. Could it be the block was cast there and the engine came from a Mannheim built machine? Just a guess. You may need to go talk with your JD dealer's service and parts departments. Do you know for sure it is a 4219?

[karbuf]

Hi Jim. Thanks for replying.. I just found out that the engine came from air compressor machine, apparently not a tractor. So that may explain the France connection... And no, I don't know that it is a D219.. that's actually what I'm trying to figure out, without taking the head off and measuring the outer diam of the sleeves.. I'm suspecting it may be a 202 Cubic Inch.. it uses the same crank as the 219. But I can't find any sources that have production dates...etc.. or what the 202 came in.. I guess it's not a major issue.. I just need to get my 450B back to pushin' dirt, so I'll have to make this one work with a little less power.

[Jim B]

If you can find out the manufacturer and model of the air compressor you may be able to find out what engines they used. Some I know of used the 4239 and newer engines and I don't think JD was as big into supplying engines in the 202 era.

Another thing can be the block itself even if the displacement is the same size. Some engines are made in two versions a lighter block for things like a compressor or other application where it is setting on a frame and a heavier, often called a stress block, for applications where the engine is part of the "frame", as generally found in tractors.

[karbuf]

Very interesting.. I didn't know about the two types of blocks... do you know what to look for? I have the pan off. I'm switching over the pan from my bad motor over to this one.. this one only has a thin steel pan.. my 450B has the heavy cast iron pan.

[karbuf]

I couldn't take it any longer.. pulled the head. measured bore at roughly 4.187" . So, I'm pretty sure it's a 239ci which is 4.192" bore.

It looks to be in really good shape.. still see cross hatch on cylinders..

Are there any concerns about replacing a 219 with a 239 in an old 450B?

[Jim B]

Power wise there shouldn't be an issue. My only concern would be the type of block you have. I don't have that answer, JD might. Are you swapping all your 219 accessories to it? A compressor engine will run in a limited speed range so the injection pump/governor will be different. Being coupled to a compressor and running in a limited rpm range could explain the lack of balance shafts.

[karbuf]

Everything you said makes a lot of sense.. great insight.. thanks!

Yes I plan to switch everything over from my current engine except the fuel injector pump.. mainly because replacement engine is 3 bolt type and my original is a 2bolt type.. but now I'm wondering if I should go the extra mile and swap out that front plate too, so I can go with my 2 bolt pump, (assuming the timing gears are the same... just had it rebuilt about 150hrs ago). however... would it flow enough to feed the 239 cu inches? What are your thoughts on that?

Good point about the limited rpm range and need for balance shafts.. I can tell that the crank has been internally balanced by significant drilling of the counter weights.. but at this point, I'm just gonna have to go with what i have (no balance shafts).. To add balance shafts to this rotating assembly would definitely throw it OUT of balance.

I also have a 310B with a 219.. I just rebuilt it a couple months ago. This "new" 239 block appears to be every bit as heavy as the 219 block.. I see no discernable differences.. ... but looks can be deceiving.. You mentioned JD may know about the block.. do you know if there's an 800 number or something? The JD dealers around here aren't very helpful to folks like us.

[B Town]

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12962



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[Jim B]

The article B Town gave you the link to has a lot of good info and there may be some info there to help you. oldmetalmender did a good job documenting his project.

If your dealer won't/can't help you, will they refer you to a regional contact? Give Lavoy a phone call and see if he has any thoughts on contacts.

If the blocks look the same, looking at bosses and casting thickness in those areas it is likely ok. I believe and have read there were visible differences in those areas with some blocks.

As for the injection pump, I believe you will need to swap that or have it reworked to be right for the dozer application. I know a few limited details of a similar transplant of a compressor engine into a wheel tractor. I know they had to swap the injection pump to get the right engine speed and variable operation. I think they basically went the same route as oldmetalmender, just used the block (and head) with the 239 internals and then installed the original tractor front and rear plates and accessories. Unfortunately the person I could ask about that for more details is not available. If you have a pump shop you use, give them the numbers of both pumps, they may be able to tell you what if anything needs to be done to use the 3 bolt pump in your application.

I wish I had better answers for you.
Jim

[karbuf]

Thanks for the link.. lots of cool stuff in there.. I wish i had time, patience, and pocketbook to do a build like that! Loved all the pictures.

So i kept digging and found a little more info on my casting number.. I found an online document someone had compiled of casting numbers from a whole bunch of manufacturers including John Deere. While I know this particular engine came from a compressor, this casting was also used in John Deere 2750s (produced in Germany).. Point is, it was used in a machine with integrated chassis... so I think that answers that question.

Also, looks like I'm gonna be taking Jim's advise and swapping out the front plate too so i can use my original injector pump.

... here's the text from that doc:
JOHN DEERE
3.9
239
2750
239 DIESEL
4.1290-4.1390" (104.877-105.131 MM)
4.1040" (104.242 MM)
New Height:
Min Height:
.023-.047" V/REC (.584-1.194 MM)
Intake Pro / Rec:
Exhaust Pro / Rec:
.038-.072" V/REC (.965-1.829 MM)
Head #:60422, CD16202, R54560, R54580, R56790, R57078, R58790, R66790, T2120, T24756
Casting Numbers:
Block #: CD16285, R55510, R72974, R80726, R81841, R81841T
DIESEL, 2750

[karbuf]

Update... and more questions!

Good news is.. I got my locked up 219 out of my 450B (tore it down and only damage was #4 rod bearing spun)... Moving forward with replacing it with the 239... Turns out that the Injector pump on the 219 accepts both bolt patterns so i don't have to swap out the front plate to use the pump from the 219.

I mentioned the 239 didn't have balance shafts (engine came out of a compressor application).. been reading some more about balance shafts and realize I may not understand correctly how they work... hence, my next question:

Do the balance shafts have anything to do with the internal balance of the crankshaft?

I read on another forum that the 4cyl vibration is result of the rotational imbalance of the 2 up and 2 down orientation of the rods/pistons. Also read that this is a critical concern for engines, like mine, that are integrated as part of the frame. .... So, now i'm thinking I should use the balance shafts in the 239.

Also, it's my understanding that the balance shafts in a 239 are same as those in a 219... It should be ok to swap the balance shafts over into the 239 (after putting in new shaft bearings with oil holes properly aligned). Right?

Advice here is appreciated.

Thanks in advance!
tim.....