450B - mystery with transmission front cover

[RightForkMaple]

A good exploded view of 450B transmission front cover is shown in John Deere parts catalog page 35-6. At top of page is shown "item 3", part number D2361R steel ball. Unfortunately, it is not clear to me where the ball is located. Please, please ... I hope there is one of you guys out there with 450B experience that can explain where this .500" steel ball belongs. Thanks, TomS

[Jim B]

I think I found the answer. The 450D parts catalog shows the ball and a Remark that shows why it is there. In checking the various parts catalogs, the 1/2" steel ball, part number D2361R, was used starting with straight 450 serial number 18530, and after, up through the 450E machines. I believe they are referring to the PTO/power shaft for winch shifter shaft port.



https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sid ... /pgId/4104

[RightForkMaple]

Your info is extremely helpful. My understanding of the text shown is the ball inserts in the hole and then plug "item 3" is inserted. Do you agree ? If that is the case, then my 450B does not need the ball. There is no hole for plug item 3, just a perfectly smooth machined surface for the oil pump to mount on. I had been thinking the ball drops down into bottom of the hole where the "oil pressure regulating valve" inserts on the top corner. JD drawings are very confusing as it looks that way on both your drawing and my 450B page 35-6. Thanks for any additional thoughts.

[Jim B]

Hopefully Leonard will be along as well to weigh in. If you look at the front cover in the straight 450 parts catalog the ball is shown in a different location. It would appear to go in a port in the side of the cover, not the top.

[LeonardL]

Even though I'm 99.99999999 percent sure about this I'm still looking into it further. I have recruited CatD8RII in on it as well. I also talked to another old mechanic friend of mine and he is certain the ball goes in the corner hole with the oil regulating valve on top of that. The valve assembly holds it in place. Why Deere decided to separate the ball from the assembly in all of the parts break downs is a mystery it seems. No one can give me a definitive answer as to why they did that. The only reason I can think of is it was an after thought in the printing process and not interested in changing what has been printed.

I'm not sure where I got that the ball can fall out or is in there loose. I'm old and have worked on a lot of equipment and it is all running together. I've been bending wrenches since I was a kid so I'm sure I have mixed this up with something else. That's my fault and I apologize. This getting old crap is not golden like everyone says it is. It's more like corrosion!! If we find anything different we will be sure to let you know. But I'm confident it goes in that corner like we discussed.

[RightForkMaple]

Thank you Jim & Leonard for all your continued help in attempting to solve the ball mystery. Two things are certain regarding my 450B cover. There is only one place the ball could go and that is down in the bottom of the hole for the bypass valve. There are no openings (for metal plugs) on either the front face or side of my cover. The 2nd thing is of particular concern, there has not been a ball in my dozer for the 10 yrs we've owned it. If it belongs under the bypass valve in all 450B's then I suspect my bypass valve has never worked at the correct pressure, it would bypass at a lower pressure without the ball under it ??? I wonder what the symptoms would be in the operation of the transmission ?

[LeonardL]

I would suspect you are correct in your summation of what the absent ball could cause and or do to the overall operation of the transmission. This valve does regulate pressure so without the ball then I would say it was mostly bypassing and not regulating much.

There have been some changes made to the front covers which Jim pointed out. Looks like starting with the 450D or maybe even the late model 450C's perhaps. I didn't go look at the "C" models to find out. I would say those other holes with the plugs are access points so that you don't need to remove the cover to replace or service the valve and this ball. Just an educated guess.

Hopefully you can get your machine to function properly after all of this. As I recall you said earlier that the HLR and Transmission never really functioned correctly? I would think the lack of this ball would be a greater part of that malfunction.

This thing may operate like a new one after you're done. Lets hope so for your sake. Keep us posted and good luck!!

[Jim B]

Your John Deere dealer should be able to get an answer from higher up the chain, or a contact for you to check with. If Jason Benesch (JWB Contracting) sees this he might have an answer with what he has seen. I am leery of saying put it under the valve at this point, when I see it located in the side of the cover in the 450 parts catalog and coming into play after serial number 018530.

There are apparently two front covers using that same part number. Some with and some without the PTO shifter port. My thoughts are when they discontinued using a shifter and the PTO/winch shaft was live all the time, since there is no shifter, they did away with the port. If the ball was just used as a plug in the shifter port as per the 450D parts catalog it would not be needed in a cover without the shifter port, thus the reference to the ball to plug the shifter port if not used on older units in the 450D parts catalog.

I think you said your cover does not have the opening. Here are pictures of the two covers, which matches yours? If you enlarge them the T24979 is cast on both.

[LeonardL]

Good point and I see what you're saying. So... I am bowing out of this one. I wasn't sure of myself in the first place and I should have left it alone. I obviously am on the wrong track here and I don't want to be the guy that F**Ks you up on this. So unless I find out something more definitive it will be up to someone else to get you the answer. It seems Jim has a very valid point so I apologize for leading you down the wrong path.

[Jim B]

I won't say I have it right either, just its the way it looks to me. Two steel balls show up in the 450B technical manual on the page with the PTO shifter. It looks like a smaller ball for detent on the rail then the spring and a larger ball outboard of the spring, the parts catalog shows the same and calls the larger ball out as D2361R. Looks like they could have done better showing it in the parts catalog and explaining its location and use in the technical manual.
https://archive.org/details/John_Deere_ ... 9/mode/1up

[LeonardL]

Yeah it's pretty obvious I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. So... to "RightForkMaple" I am sorry!! I screwed the pooch on this one!! I will leave it alone and let you be.

[RightForkMaple]

Leonard, you are being too hard on yourself. Your insight has been extraordinary helpful. Helping me think carefully through this puzzle. I am still laughing at your wise comment, "old age is not golden, more like corrosion" I am suffering from the same malady, hehehe. Like you, I have been turning wrenches on too many machines since I was a very young man.

To answer Jim's question, I have the second cover with NO shifter port shaft or plug covering the hole. Mine is just a smooth machined surface for the oil pump. At the moment, until someone more experienced and wiser than me is kind enough to share their advice, I currently think my cover does not require the ball. However, extremely open minded to additional advice and counsel.

[Jim B]

Leonard, I too am at the corrosion point. I am not trying to prove you or anyone wrong, just trying to present all the things I am seeing leading me to my assumptions. My apologies if I came across that way, I am sure you have had more hands on these JD crawlers than I have had. I readily admit I may be wrong in the way I am adding up what I am seeing. The whole thing is mixed up, why are the parts catalogs, even up to the 450E, showing the front covers as having a plug and that ball when at least some were being made without the port for the shifter. A cover option that isn't shown in the parts catalogs. The position the ball is shown in most drawing does make it appear it should drop in that top port. I still think someone at Deere should be able to give the correct answer for him. And update at least the on line info they control, to clarify this (not that I believe this will happen).
Best Regards, stay safe,
Jim

[Randynscottsboro]

A wise and honorable man knows when he might be wrong and then admits the possibility of the error.

[LeonardL]

Thanks guys for all the kind words of support, I really appreciate it. And... Jim there was no offense taken in anything you said or pointed out. This is how things get sorted in an adult way. I've been on other forums where egos get in the way and the curse words start flying and nothing gets resolved. The person with the original question ends up right where they were with no answer for their problem. When like minded folks come together and look at things from different perspectives is how we hopefully can come to a solution. If only our politicians would learn that. I mean good grief! And no I won't go there. Lavoy would throw my ass off of here if I did!!

If I had listened to CatD8RII ( Andy) I would have been looking for a different purpose for this ball the same as Jim. Andy pointed out a couple of things that now make sense. Thankfully Jim spotted it and pointed it out. After what Andy showed me and what Jim had found I did some back searching through my notes left in my 400G stuff. They have the same basic transmission as the 450's.

I found where my former employer had asked John Deere to install PTO's on all of the new machines they had ordered. I found a note where Deere had to remove the engines and then remove all of the front covers on the transmissions so they could drill a hole for the PTO shifter and then install all the parts necessary to engage / disengage the PTO. This then ran back through a gear box that dropped the PTO RPM to 540.

We couldn't have a live PTO like everyone else because my employer got it in their heads that these machines would pull heavy duty brush hogs. Which sounded good and worked on paper but failed miserably. After that failure, all of the later machines were then allowed to be delivered as they were meant to be in the first place. Without anything for a PTO.

Unfortunately I no longer have any of the parts listings, pictures or books for the 400G's that would show all of this. All I found were the copies of notes I received from my employer. But... these notes rang the proverbial bell so to speak.

So... all of that being said. Jim is correct in what he found and I would say he is also correct in saying that your machine doesn't require the ball at all. Again I apologize for leading you down the wrong path on this.

As for the "Corrosion of Life?" I'm glad to know I'm not alone. I would like to find the person who ever said that getting old is golden. I would like to find out just how golden they really are. I would bet they hurt in all the same places I do and get up and pee at least three times in one night. All while stepping on some stupid dog that we just have to have. And then... there's the cat!! Both of which take great personal exception to being stepped on in the dark!