450C "Milky" engine oil

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Jack-the-Ripper
430 crawler
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Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:28 pm
Location: Napa, CA

450C "Milky" engine oil

Post by Jack-the-Ripper » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:34 am

Are the cylinder o-rings normal neoprene?
How does one determine if they are leaking?
Can they be changed "in chassis" by dropping the oil pan?
Are cylinder liners removed for this service?

Background:

Radiator pressure test showed slow but noticeable leak - 5 lbs. drop after 5 minutes.

(Aside: performed same pressure test on "Sister 450B" (15 p.s.i.) to see what might be a "normal" leakage rate, if any, and blew rotted steel bottom out of radiator. $1400 replacement cost + shipping. Instead, fiberglassed bottom and reinstalled.) Back to our story:

Dipped a wire into a radiator tube and found the anti-freeze level at about the head gasket height.
First reflex to inspect head gasket - didn't find any obvious problem; now awaiting new gasket.
Second reaction (slightly slower than a reflex) - read posts on our message board, and my manuals.
I notice there are o-rings low on the cylinders that can leak coolant into the oil.
The poor machine has sat unused in moderate Napa, CA climate for several years awaiting a final drive repair. Engine run infrequently during that time. Changed engine oil after drive repair - no coolant found in old oil at that time. Ran engine maybe 1/2 hour to test final drive fix on level ground. A couple months later, oil came up milky during pre-check for a job. Engine starts immediately, runs smooth, with no white smoke. Apparently no holes in cylinder walls.

I notice, oil leaks developing in the 4 tractors and two old Grand Cherokees that linger around here, and have read that the seals can fail after long periods of no use.

Any suggestions or shared experience is appreciated.

I don't get on the board as much since moving to urban Napa, CA 10 years ago from 60 acres of trees in North Idaho, and don't find as much use for the tractor collection in the pavement jungle, either.
JD450C (Jack the Ripper), JD450B (Jill the Wench), KomatsuPC120 (Ursa, The Big Dipper), Case580E (Ida Hoe), International 4400 Dump Truck

Jim B
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Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am
Location: western Maine

Re: 450C "Milky" engine oil

Post by Jim B » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:07 am

I would recommend buying only the proper O-ring seals for the engine (and installation lube), not trying to get them from a place with run of the mill stock O-rings on a shelf.

You can drop the pan, pressurize the radiator and lay under it and watch for leaks. You may need to let it set a while before they show, if they do. It could be O-ring/seals (on outside of liner) or liner erosion (leak shows between piston and liner). Some liner seals do seep when setting for extended times. I have an AC tractor that for years will have a few drops of coolant at the drain plug after it sets all winter (so it gets more temperature swings to the low side than your area), but nothing appears in the summer when it is being run so it is either sealing itself with warm weather and operation, or the leak is small enough it evaporates any leakage off. It is not unusual that it requires no coolant to be added all summer and just a bit when first started in the spring. Its on the list for a teardown when time permits.

Yes, the O-rings can be changed in chassis. The liners have to be pulled to change them so you are basically looking at an "in-frame" engine overhaul. The 450C should have an engine oil to coolant cooler mounted between the block and engine oil filter. It might be worth pulling it off and pressure testing it while you are waiting on the head gasket, you might be lucky and the leak be in it.

My thoughts, ours may vary. Good luck.

nelstomlinson
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Re: 450C "Milky" engine oil

Post by nelstomlinson » Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:48 pm

I started down that track a while back, and found it was a HUGE pain in the rear to do that in frame. It is hard to drop the pan, it is impossible to drop the crank on my 450C loader because a frame crossmember is in the way. Since it's a loader, the arms are in the way when I'm working from above. Next time I have to overhaul an engine, it's coming out. I also found that the liners were seriously stuck. I built a stout puller, and had to pound on the bottom of the liners too. Each time one finally broke loose, it sounded like a gunshot. Image

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Jack-the-Ripper
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Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:28 pm
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Re: 450C "Milky" engine oil

Post by Jack-the-Ripper » Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:46 am

Thanks to you both for the helpful replies.

I've received the new aftermarket head gasket and will check its thickness, but so far it looks like high quality. Of course, the only way to make it rain in drought ridden CA is to open your engine outside, so having some delay in the repair.

I'm currently using the 450B backup tractor on a job which is taking priority.

I plan to pull the pan and inspect the bottom of the cylinder liners, I'm not sure I'm "hopeful" of finding faulty o-rings. The worst option is a cracked block as oldmetalmender found. This engine has run perfectly with lots of hours for more than 15 years, although it sat for the last several with an intermittent steering clutch that's now been repaired.

Fortunately my rebuilds of the steering clutches and undercarriage have made my 450B backup dozer a reliable first stringer, now.

I'm curious, if the cylinder o-rings are bad, how they get replaced? Do they sit in grooves in the block? Can they be replaced without removing the piston? I assume the liner must be raised, at least. I read about some lubricating "soap?"

An initial radiator pressure test showed a slow leak. "Stop leak" has been suggested. Any opinions? I could pressurize the radiator again to observe the cylinder's o-rings from below but would have to reinstall the head, which would then have to be removed again if they need to be replaced.

The steel bottom of the 450B radiator, and hose fittings, had "rotted out" perhaps from forgetting to change, or just omitting, antifreeze. I wonder if I have just "rotted out" something in the 450C's engine, as well?

As always, thanks for any ideas and suggestions.
JD450C (Jack the Ripper), JD450B (Jill the Wench), KomatsuPC120 (Ursa, The Big Dipper), Case580E (Ida Hoe), International 4400 Dump Truck

Jim B
350 crawler
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Location: western Maine

Re: 450C "Milky" engine oil

Post by Jim B » Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:23 am

As I posted before for you. The liners have to be pulled to change the O-rings and packings (JD calls them washers). To pull the liners you have to pull the pistons out of them. The block and liners need to be inspected and cleaned before reassembly. I don't see how that could be done by just raising the liners. Lubrication of the O-rings is required for liner installation, oil is not used. JD sells a product for this and there are other soap type products people use. You have seen oldmetalmender's post about his engine overhaul. If you didn't read it all please do, a lot of what he did in the head and cylinders areas of his will apply to your case, even if you don't pull the engine out.

You will basically be doing an in frame overhaul of the engine and should consider doing it completely and properly when going this far into the engine. If you have the head off and are going to replace the O-rings in the block, AND also the packing rings on the liners, you might as well take the head to a shop now and have it cleaned, tested, reconditioned if needed, and the valves done. Maybe your head has a crack you can't see. When you pull the pistons out you then have the question of replacing the rings and rod bearings. Sorry, but there is no easy fix, if that is an answer you are looking for, in my opinion. Stop leak might or might not work, or it could plug some of the cooling system, your choice on trying it.

The processes of doing these things are in the engine section of the technical manual. Do you have the proper technical manual (TM1102) for your 450C? If you don't, you need to contact Lavoy and get a copy. Whether you have one, or get one, you are going to need to study it prior to proceeding and refer to it as you go, if you are going to get into this. I'm not trying to discourage or run you down, but am trying to be realistic about what you are dealing with.
Jim

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