Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post support questions about your JD350 and newer crawler here
cordlesscarpenter
1010 crawler
1010 crawler
Posts: 265
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:36 pm
Location: Southeast Indiana

Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:55 pm

Machine: Late 60's straight 450 crawler loader, 4.219 Diesel (naturally aspirated)

Hello everyone and thanks for reading and helping.

A little history on the straight 450... I logged with the straight 450 all summer in 2019, then in 2020 I went to do my pre-checks and found the oil milky. First thing I did after stress puking and going through a few days of denial and re-checking was pull the head and had it machined, a valve job and mag tested. I reinstalled the fresh head with new gasket (dry, no permatex/RTV) as agreed upon by JD and my machine shop and of course changed the oil. After putting everything back together I followed the manual and ran it for 1 hour then re-torqued head bolts and adjusted valve tappets. As soon as the one hour was over, I drained the warm oil (using the 1 hour run as an engine oil flush of sorts) and the oil did not appear milky. I waited to put in new oil because it was pretty cold out that day and I didn't want to put cold oil into the hot engine. I also left the oil plug out to see if any coolant leaked out (but the coolant may have all drained out with the oil, who knows). The next day, I put the oil plug back in and filled it up until the oil was just inside the safe zone on the dip-stick, topped off the radiator and waited a few weeks for the ground to dry up. Then came time to put her ass back to work and doing the pre-check the oil was clear (new oil with no run time at this point) but the level was above the "high" mark which I chalked up to settling oil and a dry-ish oil filter. I figured I would fire it up for a few minutes (less than 5 minutes) to get oil running through the system and re-check the level... after running it for 3-4 minutes I checked it and it was still high AND milky again... WTF!

After pulling out what was left of my hair and a few choice words, I started pondering... the oil was probably high because all the coolant had drained into the oil pan, and I didn't notice coolant on the stick because it was all at the bottom below the dipstick. Then when I fired it up for the 3-4 min, it all mixed together. That would mean the coolant drained into the pan before I even ran the engine and pressurized the radiator or opened the thermostat, leading me to believe the problem isn't the head gasket at all.

The guy that did the work on my head said he had the same issue with his 450C dozer and when he poured coolant in, he could just see it run right out onto the floor... his problem ended up being O-rings. He replaced the O-rings and was GTG.

I ordered a new gasket (this time a genuine John Deere gasket ($81+ shipping)). The gasket arrived yesterday and so this morning's plan was to swap out the head gasket but with a thin layer of permatex on both sides as the tech manual states to do. I went to drain the radiator and nothing came out of the petcock?? At this point I assume ALL the coolant is in the oil pan and fear I too might have bad O-rings as well. Here in a minute I will drain the oil and fill the radiator with water and see if anything comes out of the pan. I'm trying everything I can first before pulling the pan because pulling the pan requires draining and disconnecting all the hoses (not gonna be fun) then once I do that and pull the pan, I dive into the "well... since I'm already in here" scenario and a couple grand later, I'm back in business. UGH.

Later today I plan to drain the oil (coolant should come out first if it's in there) If that does indeed happen, then I will leave the oil plug out and fill the radiator... if coolant pours right out of the oil plug hole without me cranking over the engine then I know it's the O-rings and the heavy lifting begins. If it doesn't, then there's a shot it could have blown by the cheap head gasket with no permatex. If that's the case, I'll swap out the head gasket and giver her a go.

Has anyone ever had this same issue? what ended up being the cause and ultimate solution?

Thoughts and advice anyone?

If the O-rings need to be replaced, I'm sure there's already a thread on it, can someone point me in the right direction, a hyperlink perhaps?

Thanks

B Town
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:04 pm
Location: Western Iowa

Re: Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post by B Town » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:05 pm

Might pressure test the engine oil cooler, before tearing into the engine. It may be a long shot, but doing the easier stuff first may help.

Did the engine run fine? If it ran badly, maybe a pin hole in the cylinder liner. If it ran fine, then maybe o-rings.

Best regards, Bruce

cordlesscarpenter
1010 crawler
1010 crawler
Posts: 265
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:36 pm
Location: Southeast Indiana

Re: Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:05 pm

Bruce,

By engine oil cooler, you're referring to the radiator yes? Surprising me isn't that hard to do but that'd be a new one on me if there was a separate "engine oil cooler"... If you are indeed talking about the radiator, wouldn't pressurizing it just make it leak no matter where it was leaking from? I'm trying to rule out head gasket by doing a static check (just filling the radiator with water to see if it starts running out the oil plug hole). The only ways I know of that coolant could get into the pan is via a blown head gasket, bad O-rings, or worst, a cracked black (in this case a hole). I mean there was a LOT of coolant in the pan, probably a gallon of straight coolant and the rest was emulsified with the oil, got drained out, or is still in the jacket where it belongs.

The engine runs perfectly fine, you wouldn't know it had problems by listening to it. When the engine is first started, oil pressure (hard line filled with oil to gauge, not an electronic pressure sensor) is at about 45 PSI, then after about 20-30 minutes it starts dropping and hangs out at about 20 PSI until I shut the machine down. When I go to idle after running it for half an hour, it won't even register on the pressure gauge.

I just drained the oil and just as I suspected, straight coolant came out first, then emulsified oil, then clean oil. In fact, when I checked the oil right before draining it, it gave me a good, clear reading (although high) and would have fooled me on pre-checks on a normal day. Had I not checked it shortly after I did the 5 minute run I would have thought I was good to go if the oil level wasn't so high. There does not seem to be any oil in the coolant.

Regarding the radiator drain petcock, turns out the tiny butterfly hand wheel was broken and just spinning freely, finally got the valve to turn and about 1.5 gallons drained out. Getting ready to fill the radiator now and perform that check (fingers crossed but not holding my breath).

Any and all suggestions are welcomed and appreciated.

B Town
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:04 pm
Location: Western Iowa

Re: Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post by B Town » Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:21 pm

Look at the base of the engine oil filter. See the small cooling lines with small heater hoses with the 90 degree bends. The thicker metal case bxt the oil filter and the block is a oil cooler. Almost all turbo diesels will have an engine oil cooler. This one happens to be small and well hid.

jbloam
420 crawler
420 crawler
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:42 pm
Location: Elk County, PA.

Re: Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post by jbloam » Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:45 pm

I had this issue on my 4219 engine on a late 70's JD 410 backhoe. After exhausting all the easy checks it ended up being pitted and perforated cylinder liners. Bought an inframe engine rebuild kit and good to go. Liners, pistons, rings, piston rod bearings, and bolts, main bearings, head gasket, head bolts, valve cover and oil pan gaskets. Luckily for me there was no pitting or wear on the crank so nothing had to be done there. Runs like a champ. Not too bad of a project. Never did it before but it is amazing what you can learn on the internet from sites like this one.

cordlesscarpenter
1010 crawler
1010 crawler
Posts: 265
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:36 pm
Location: Southeast Indiana

Re: Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:50 am

Update:

I filled the radiator and did the static test... nothing came out of the oil plug hole. I then made a plug to add pressure via my air compressor and still nothing.

Bruce, I'll check for the engine oil cooler, yeah, that's a new one on me. This diesel is a non-turbo engine so I may be looking for something that isn't there? Do naturally aspirated diesel engines have the cooler too?

I'll test the cooler for sure but if that doesn't pan out, I'd be out of options and just bracing myself for the in-frame rebuild... should prove interesting doing this outside with the spring rains coming. At least it isn't freezing cold all day every day anymore.

jbloam, Thanks for the insight on the in-frame rebuild and parts I'll be looking at for the project. Without having done this job on this specific engine before and without having looked this up in the book just yet, Am I looking at taking the entire front end off the machine to do this job? From the few engine jobs I've done and helped with, I remember the crank being pulled out through the front of the engine, is there a way to drop it straight down through the bottom with this engine? Silly question but do the new liners come with new O-rings? Who did you go through for the parts (were they JD/OEM parts or aftermarket)? If the latter, were they good quality parts?

Will be nice to get the machine back up and running, I plan to sell this one to ease up the funding of my main machine project which is a '73, 450B crawler/loader/backhoe... full rebuild which is also happening right now. The 450B will be the machine I'm taking with me to start homesteading in Montana this summer... assuming I can make it through all the work on both machines without too many delays.

These two machines are my soul focus every single day, when I'm not helping friends and family with other stuff so the work should progress nicely assuming parts aren't too much of a delay.

jbloam
420 crawler
420 crawler
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:42 pm
Location: Elk County, PA.

Re: Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post by jbloam » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:31 am

On the 410 backhoe I was able to do the work from below with the oil pan pulled and from above with the head pulled. Not sure with a dozer. Plenty of room underneath a backhoe to maneuver around. My crank measured out okay so I left that in place. Yes the liners come with the o rings. Everything needed is in the kit right down to all gaskets. I was lucky to find a NOS Deere factory rebuild kit on ebay for a fire sale price. If my memory serves me right, after researching kits I was leaning toward the Mahle-Clevite kit before I came across the Deere kit.

cordlesscarpenter
1010 crawler
1010 crawler
Posts: 265
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:36 pm
Location: Southeast Indiana

Re: Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:41 am

jbloam wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:31 am
On the 410 backhoe I was able to do the work from below with the oil pan pulled and from above with the head pulled. Not sure with a dozer. Plenty of room underneath a backhoe to maneuver around. My crank measured out okay so I left that in place. Yes the liners come with the o rings. Everything needed is in the kit right down to all gaskets. I was lucky to find a NOS Deere factory rebuild kit on ebay for a fire sale price. If my memory serves me right, after researching kits I was leaning toward the Mahle-Clevite kit before I came across the Deere kit.
jbloam,

Another silly question, was the crank not in the way when you punched out the sleeves/liners? How did you do it, what tools did you use to push them up and out? Thanks for the 411 on kits, I'll definitely be looking into kits tonight. If you left the crank in place, I assume you didn't replace the crank's main bearings, just the connecting rod bearings?

timmtnman
440 crawler
440 crawler
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 3:44 pm
Location: Sylva NC

Re: Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post by timmtnman » Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:31 pm

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12962&p=73956&hilit ... ild#p73760

Here's a very good link to read about a rebuild. I would also check with Lavoy on rebuild kits. He carries quality parts for these machines.
Have to start with his first post.

jbloam
420 crawler
420 crawler
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:42 pm
Location: Elk County, PA.

Re: Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post by jbloam » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:45 pm

The mains are inside the crankcase. They are replaced in similar fashion as the connecting rod bearings. I bought a cylinder liner puller also off of ebay from a gentleman in South Carolina. It consists of a frame that rests on top of the block with a piece of all thread that extends down into the cylinder. He machines a puck slightly smaller than the bore of the cylinder and you screw that onto the allthread from the bottom. You can reach around the crank to do this. You then turn a nut on top of the allthread against the frame to lift the liner out. Mrnelms8888 was his seller name. I learned alot on you tube videos. Particularly one called Adept Ape and another Fanshawe College.

cordlesscarpenter
1010 crawler
1010 crawler
Posts: 265
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:36 pm
Location: Southeast Indiana

Re: Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:24 am

jbloam,

Found the liner puller. Makes a lot more sense to pull them from the top than drive them up from below, especially with the crank in the way (crossing my fingers I don't have crank issues). Would you want to sell the puller that you used, assuming it's still kicking around your shop?

Do you have the part number for the kit you used? I like the fact that you said it has ALL the parts needed. I realize I still need to match up serial numbers to the specific kit but the kit you used should get me looking for the right sized kit with all the parts needed and then I can find that kit for my engine's serial number... most of the kits I'm finding online are missing a few things your kit came with OR they come with a bunch of parts I'm not planning on replacing.

There's plenty of room under the crawler for sure... pain in the rear to pull the pan though because of a ridiculous JD design... I must first drain and disconnect supply & return lines coming from trans oil cooler or hyd pump, maybe both (can't remember off the top of my head) just to remove the oil pan .

dtoots1
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 1162
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:54 am
Location: akron, ohio

Re: Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post by dtoots1 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:34 am

have you checked with Lavoy for the kit?

cordlesscarpenter
1010 crawler
1010 crawler
Posts: 265
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:36 pm
Location: Southeast Indiana

Re: Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:55 am

I emailed Lavoy this morning and just heard back from him. The problem lies in finding out which kit will work with my engine. Unfortunately the serial number plates for both the crawler itself AND the engine are missing. All I have to go off of is the stinkin' number stamped on the side of the block (T 23406 T).

At this point Lavoy would be shooting in the dark knowing which kit to go with.

Does anyone out there know a way of positively identifying an engine with a missing serial number tag?

User avatar
Lavoy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 10937
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:32 pm
Location: North Dakota
Contact:

Re: Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post by Lavoy » Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:26 am

A thought just struck me, I would stop at your local dealer and see what they say. They may have a reference to that block part number that will tell them something.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

jbloam
420 crawler
420 crawler
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:42 pm
Location: Elk County, PA.

Re: Straight 450 Engine Oil Milky

Post by jbloam » Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:05 pm

Cordlesscarpenter

The kit I used was RE527293. One thing that didn't come with was the piston pins. I forgot I bought them separarely until I was looking through my records for the kit number for you. Didn't really need to but figured I'd replace them since I was that far in to it. My engine block has 2 stampings 1 above the other. R55011 and R55034. Concerning the the puller. I would be glad to let you use it for the price of shipping back and forth. Don't really want to sell since I have a 350 dozer that I want to rebuild soon and was going to have a puck machined locally. That is if the boss of the house allows me to keep it. I think I have her talked in to it after the winter we had this year in northwest PA. Makes one hell of a snowplow for 700 feet of driveway!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 43 guests