'73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

[Stan Disbrow]

Hi,

Sounds great!

On the dangling engine, keep in mind they have an axle in front to hold it up, but then the engine holds the transmission up. Wonderful idea, the stressed casting. Don't need a frame that way. One more thing to get in the way!

Stan

[DrLoch]

For alternators and parts I generally go here, https://alternatorparts.com/

I've gotten alternators and pulleys from him in the past. They should be able to get you going in the right direction. I have a Delco one wire alternator on my loader and 1960 Ferguson tractor.

[cordlesscarpenter]

Thanks for the lead on the alternator, just called and left a message on both lines, hopefully they are quick to get back to me.

Right now I'm dealing with the water pump... I pulled it because it wasn't painted and my engine mech was up front and told me he didn't touch the water pump because it felt good. So I pulled it and thank God I did because when he unbolted it from the engine to do the rebuild, he left it sealed to the front plate that the radiator's upper bracket gets mounted to and between those two surfaces, it was caked with rust that had settled there over the years. Last thing I want is one little missed space like that missed to have all that debris floating through a nice clean engine with new radiator. The good news is that now that I put my eyes on the pump itself, I feel better because the pump itself looks brand new and has zero play . Just gotta get the rust cleaned out and paint the bracket and pump's externals. Then once the WP gasket and the new 180* thermostat & gasket get here I'll instal it all.

Also installed the new fuel lift pump but the (2) 90* brass elbow fittings' seats were pretty jacked so I ordered two new fittings along with new upper and lower radiator hoses and a new glass sediment bowl for the fuel filter assembly's first stage. My old glass bowl was still "useable" but cracked so I was at the old timer's implement shop looking for a new one when it hit the floor and finished the job. Every glass bowl I could find online had the wrong dimensions, even the aftermarket ones that listed that part number had the wrong size hole in the bottom so I ended up ordering OEM, gosh I'm getting tired of dealer pricing on parts, it makes me sick to my stomach sometimes but you gotta do what you gotta do when the assembly needs to keep rolling forward steadily on a machine that's turning 50 next year.

Best get back at it... thanks again DrLoch!

[cordlesscarpenter]

Got the battery box mounted today with its lid in place and shift quadrant half mounted as I need to do some touch up painting on the shift levers.

spent the rest of the day cleaning, prepping, priming and painting all the hard line and hyd hose brackets for the whole machine. Also, about a year ago I scored a large JOBOX in great shape at an auction for cheap and one of the gems inside said box was a nice size melting pot with about a half gallon or so of plastisol. I knew what it was because I stood in front of one all day dipping drill bits when I was a young machinist... the low man on the totem pole kinda gigs (or when someone showed up late for work, ask me how I know lol). Anywho, I didn't know if it even worked but was pleasantly surprised when it fired up and rose to temp without fail and enabled me to dip all the brackets ends (and a few tool handles)

I also got the water pump and thermostat housing looking fresh and snazzy (OCY), just waiting on a few parts to finish that section and move forward. Tomorrow will be a lot of touch up painting and a quick run to town for a few bits and bobs along with a few left over small brackets to clean up and such.

Oh yeah, got the new neutral safety switch delivered and installed along with the new trans temp sensor.

Cheers fellow crawlers!

[cordlesscarpenter]

Originally I was going to crack open the power steering pump and do a quick inspection but cannot find a rebuild kit anywhere and from my 30 years of experience with with pumps like this (I retired from a career as a machinist where quite a bit of that time was spent in pump shops), you don't open them up unless you are committed to the possibility of having to rebuild it. Once you've disturbed the packing, seals, etc. it's tough to get them to operate the way they did unless you are putting in new guts and since I can't find guts, my safest bet is to leave it be. Good thing is that it feels good, operates smoothly and is tight & right with no play so all should be good. I went ahead and got it all cleaned up and painted in the usual fashion (went black this time to easily distinguish it later). Side note on these pumps, I did find one shop that rebuilds them (on eBay of all places) and they want $1,200 for a rebuilt unit and that's WITH turning in a core, if you do not have a core, the final cost is $1,900. So after tax and shipping you're looking at 2K. I wanted to remind them that you can practically buy an entire good used engine with that pump on it for that price but decided against it.

Today I got the water pump mounted mounted once the gasket arrived and got the shift quadrant and shift levers all sorted out, so the battery box is 100% complete now (and operating smoothly the way it should), just need to make slight adjustment to placement when I mount the Hyd box and fuel tank.

Also threw on the fan and alternator bracket to feel like I got something accomplished today lol.

I also found and spoke with a salvage yard only 2 hours from my place who has most if not all the remaining parts I need which will save me me about 4 hours of driving (going there vs the WV yard that ghosted me for some reason). So headed there first thing in the morning... Fingers crossed I score everything I need.

[cordlesscarpenter]

Today was a really good day but not a perfect one.

I was able to score the air cleaner assembly between the knees but instead of taking it all apart we simply dropped the angle plate which I also needed, it just happened to have the correct air cleaner, all hoses, pass throughs, and throttle linkages still attached so I took it as a unit... tomorrow I will restore it so I can FINALLY start working on the wiring up the dash to the rest of the machine.

Next, I scored
- Two original headlights
- A mint Hyd pump outlet pressure tube (mine had a hole in it)
- A few random oil lines
- Two hood latches if you can believe that
And
- The heat shield that goes below the angle plate (part of the firewall)

The real treat that I wasn't expecting was an original battery box TOOL TRAY!!! Minus the grime, it was in absolutely perfect shape, like not even a dent, crazy I know right! Scoring the air cleaner assembly and angle plate was worth the drive in itself but the tool tray was what made me smile the biggest.

One of the machines in the yard did have a power steering system but unfortunately it was the older system, still using the separate reservoir, so it is of no use to me, plus it would have taken all day to get to it as the machine just arrived and I was the first to pick and pull from it (not dismantled yet) and it would have taken machinery to lift the boom out of the way, remove the grill, radiator, etc and all that time = more $$$.

One of the most valuable yet intangible things I got from the trip that was also free... lots and lots of photos! with the machine I am restoring having been through the engine fire, EVERYTHING from the firewall to the grill that wasn't steel melted and even melted some of that. Needless to say, I had nothing to go off of, nothing to refer to, no "before" pictures or anything other than manuals as to "this hose go from here and connects there" and "Oh, that's where that fitting goes, I've been wondering about that".

I'll through it out there again, if you or anyone you know has a 450B (serial number 142200 or higher) that you would sell me the piping for the power steering out of, I am a buyer.

Best get some sleep, tomorrow is gonna be a long day

[cordlesscarpenter]

The last few day have been trying my patience to say the least but productive none the less.

After disassembling and assessing the salvage yard scores I realized a few problems...

1. The intake hose on the air cleaner assembly was for a turbo engine (mine is non-turbo). The engine was long gone from the machine I got it from and I never saw my original due to the fire. Needless to say I'm searching for an intake hose for this sucker (PN: T31767) in case anyone out there has one kicking around they want to sell me . I actually located a new one, it's through JD and only one store in the country has it (in California) and the price is $178 🤮. I just can't justify spending that kinda money for a rubber hose that should only cost $25 max. I'm thinking one of my 450 straight intake hoses just might work if I flip it 180*, I have like 3 of those lol... I'll let y'all know if it works, maybe that helps out others in the future.

2. The angle plate was in really good shape actually except for some light pitting on the base below where the throttle assembly mounts and two short 1" cracks running down on either side of where the air box bolts up (I believe these were common stress cracks in the early 450s) . I did some excavation with the grinder and welded those cracks up real nice and everything is solid as a rock now.

3. There are a few pin holes in the air cleaner assembly's front cap which I plan to fill from the rear with a thin layer of JB weld. On the same assembly I also had to break out the body shop tools and do some minor surgery to the back side where they apparently rammed the engine into it whilst pulling it, it now looks as though it never happened. More bad news on the air cleaner... it was missing its "Isolator" (the rubber cup that fits inside the air cleaner's cap)... after searching high and low for someone who actually sells one cheaper, I bit the bullet and bought one from Deere, yeah, you don't wanna know how much I paid for that. I wish the older ones fit but the late model B and all C model air cleaners dwarf the straights and early Bs

On the plus side, when I bought the throttle (speed control) assembly to replace my original one that was seized up, I did not realize the chain link that is in the assembly has two different lengths, a shorter link for dozers and a longer one for loaders... the assembly that came with the air cleaner and angle plate came from a loader and therefore had the long link that I needed .

The minty original tool caddy was media blasted (it still had a lot of original paint on it if you can believe it and only minor pitting in spots on the bottom of the inside, the rest was pristine... This makes me smile for some reason. it got it primed and painted black, it will receive a rubber mat for the tools to sit on, I will also remake a wooden base for it to sit on, just as it would have come from the factory.

Then came prep, it took a whole day to get all the bits and bobs down to bare metal and primed. Today was paint day, everything got at least 4-5 coats of it's respective color (black or OC yellow) and all is looking real nice for assembly later tomorrow or the next day.

Got my new radiator hoses (cheap through Deere, go figure), engine temp sending unit, the two fuel lift pump elbow fittings and the 1st stage fuel filter sediment bowl today and installed all except the sediment bowl because although it had the right part number (though Deere mind you), it was not only too tall by about an inch, it was also made of stainless steel and not glass as it was originally. I am tracking down a suitable glass bowl and think I have one licked for about $10, if that doesn't pan out, the yard I was just at has one that should work.

I also finally dug in to the hydraulic tank a bit before I ran out of light... tank is in really good shape all things considered. A few small spots of surface rust but nothing I can't remove quickly with some scotch brite. Glad I opened the sump up, the filter had come undone and was no longer attached to the lid, in the bottom of the sump I found the filter canister and it's two metal end caps (separately) along with the bolt and washer.

***** That brings me to the quandary of how to properly flush this tank and the 10 lines that exit it. I have thoroughly cleaned and capped ALL my hyd lines, bought a new hyd pump, and all 4 cylinders will be rebuilt so it only makes sense that I ensure the belly of the hyd system is good and clean too since it's the only part of the system left to clean and flush. I'm thinking of filling the sump 1/2 - 3/4 full and hang it in the air from its rear, then operate the manifold to release fluid through all the cylinder supply and return lines... the sumps lines that run to and from the pump might be tricky though, the supply will be easy, the pressure side will be a little more challenging I think. If anyone has any ideas or experience, please, chime in .

Once I get the Kubota back to 100% I'll be able to move on to cleaning and flushing not only the hyd tank but the fuel tank as well... I still need to pressure wash that and fill it with 50/50 vinegar/water solution for a week or so then pressure wash again and blow dry. Then I can start mounting all the goods and really feel like I'm on the home stretch, right now I feel as though I have 4 months of work I need to squeeze into 2.

[cordlesscarpenter]

Looking for suggestions on flushing the hydraulic reservoir (sump/tank/whatever you wish to call it)... any ideas? I posted my thoughts about it in the last comment, heading out now to get the parts I need to fix the Kubota so I can get started on cleaning & flushing fuel and hydraulic tanks.

[cordlesscarpenter]

Made some good progress today... pressure washed the snot out of the fuel tank and it is now pressed up with 50/50 vinegar/water mix. I will leave it sit for a week, pressure wash it again, blow dry, then let it air out in the sun for a spell, then it will be ready to mount in place.

While that is soaking, I am shifting focus to cleaning the hydraulic tank and getting it up to snuff and ready to mount as well as getting my fuel supply & return lines and power steering lines all sorted out.

I forgot I had a stash of small hard lines in my storage and found the long, 3 piece pressure line (all 3 pieces!), that run from the PS pump outlet and connect to the back side of the flow divider between the cylinders under the seat, that is a HUGE win in my book. The inlet line to the pump from the transmission cooler along with the line from the relief valve on the pump to the transmission will need to be built out of the most flexible line that can hold 500 psi.

I have the fuel supply and return hard lines out of the tank but they are not complete so I'll be finishing the line with brained fuel line. I'm also considering just going with all new braided line from the tank to the lift pump, I'll mock up the lines and make the decision tomorrow morning then make a run to town for fuel lines, power steering lines and possibly even an intake hose.

Within a week's time the goal is to have the hydraulic tank and fuel tank mounted in place, fuel system complete with supply and return lines, power steering pump mounted and PS system lines connected with the exception of the trans cooler line which I'll hook up when I mount the new radiator and transmission oil cooler.

I was able to get the angle plate, heat shield and air cleaner all mounted in place and things in that area are starting to look proper. I even mounted the deckplates (where you feet rest) but that was pre-mature because they quickly needed to be removed to mock up the power steering pressure line lol.

To all that were wondering, for non turbo engines, the 450 Straight's air intake hose flipped 180 does NOT fit the 450B's bigger, angled air cleaner. It IS however, close enough for me to take to town tomorrow and rummage through everyones hose stashes in the back to find something that will work. The hose needs to be a hair bigger and about 4" longer on the end that connects to the air cleaner. I'll make an extension and flex the 450 straight's hose over the intake manifold before I drop 2 bills on a new one.

Wish me luck tomorrow!

Cheers everyone!

[cordlesscarpenter]

I've decided to look for a new engine fan, I bought a used one a while back but as you can imagine with any fan that's 50 years old, it had more than it's fair share of cuts, dings, bumps and bruises. I straightened everything out best I could but long story short, I don't trust it to be anywhere close to balanced. I'd like to buy a brand new fan and not ruin my water pump but can't find one anywhere.

DrLoch, I read your post from 2014, do you remember where you ended up getting your fan?

Any other suggestions on where to locate a new fan for the project is welcomed

*** On a side note, if there are any old timers out there following this thread, how much would this machine have costed new in 1973?

[Andy B]

Did you find or repair all of the rigid lines you needed?
I know the "Deere factory surcharge" can be expensive, but I think they can fabricate all the lines.
I used to own a 1954 40 Utility tractor, and when I rebuilt it I had to find most of the rigid hydraulic lines because over the years previous owners had replaced them with flexible line. When I went to the dealer, he said he could get any one I wanted because the Deere warehouse would just fabricate them according to the parts drawings. This was 20 or so years ago, but I would think they should still offer the service. The lines may be gold-plated at this point, or at least cost that much.

[cordlesscarpenter]

Andy, I found 3 of the 5 power steering lines that make up the longest, most difficult and likely most expensive run but I'm still searching for the pump inlet and pump relief lines. I'll look into the dealer option, I wish I'd known about that in the beginning, I would have had a lot more lines made. I assumed JD wouldn't entertain that kind of service but if they do I still have a handful I'd have them do, for peace of mind.

Been so much going on here, she's starting to look like a crawler now! I got the Hyd tank all cleaned up (it was almost completely rust free to begin with), had to order a new wire mesh filter/strainer for underneath the bell, the last guy to change it put a filter in it that looked correct in size and shape but it was not a wire mesh filter, it looked more like the inside of a paper oil filter and half of it had deteriorated and was at the bottom of the tank. I also cleared out all the lines with compressed air and got it mounted in place on the machine. I have the micron filter but will put it all together and seal the tank up once the new oem wire mesh filter gets here.

I prepped, painted and mounted the long power steering line as well as the fuel supply and return lines. Return is 100% however, I will have to fabricate the last stretch of fuel supply line but I have the right size line and plenty of fittings.

The power steering pump was also permanently mounted along with the hyd pump drive/disconnect assembly, hyd pump itself, upper radiator bracket and ears.

Next I assembled the throttle assembly behind the dash area... cleaned, oiled, prepped & painted the throttle linkage and hooked it all to the injection pump and everything there is operating perfectly the way it should.

Lastly, I pulled the tachometer cable, got it all cleaned, painted, greased and installed

Tomorrow I'll be emptying and pressure washing the fuel tank, get it all dried out and mounted. Then I can finally bolt the boxes and tank together with the front plate and adjust the mounting of the assembly to square up with the lines of the machine then tighten up all the bolts.

[cordlesscarpenter]

Ok guys, Going after the correct alternator...

Not so sure I know what I need... I think I am looking for a 12V, 10si Delco style 1 wire alternator with GM style mounting but the guy DrLoch recommended suggested a 63amp version.

To be frank, it felt like the guy that answered the phone at alternatorparts.com had someplace better to be and either wasn't familiar with what I needed or didn't care, thus left me feeling as though his recommendation might have been only partially correct. I thought the 450s used 12V, 30amp?

Now, I am pretty damn good at mechanical systems but when it comes to electricity, I know just enough to get me into trouble and not enough to make the right decisions on specific components like this. The guy suggested " Part # D110SiSE12V63A 12V 63 Amp 10Si Series Self Exciting (one wire) Alternator, Negative Ground ", is this alternator the "ideal alternator" for this machine or should I be looking for a different one, maybe 30 amp? Is more amperage better or should I stay closer to the original amperage? ygh, the struggle is real.

Got good updates coming, just need to get the alternator piece figured out.

[Lavoy]

It was most likely born with an external regulator Motorola. Doesn't mean you can't convert, don't remember if a 10SI is same mounting pattern as the Motorola, but I would have to believe it is, or at least close.
63 amp 10SI 1 wire is probably the most common one you are going to find. IF you are using the original harness, most likely the feed wire from the alternator is sized for 30 amps. Not a big deal if you never put a huge electrical load on the machine. If you decide to hook something up that takes a lot of power, you could possibly heat up that wire. If you are running a new wire from the alternator, just size it accordingly and don't worry about it.
If you have a "volt" light in the dash, it will likely not function with a non-original alternator.
Lavoy

[cordlesscarpenter]

Thanks Lavoy.

Yes, it was born with a Motorola and still had the external regulator and everything, I planned on going 1 wire from the get go

I had an entirely new wiring harness built for the machine and when he asked what alternator I was going to run I asked him to build the harness for a one wire alternator since it would be easier to find one (once I know what I need that is lol) but didn't specify the amperage rating or anything. My harness was not the first 450B he's built and he has all the diagrams and other electrical information on the machine so I assume he built it to factory specs but being an electrician, he could have wired it for a higher amperage knowing what I would likely get. I'll have to check what gauge wire's he used and upgrade if needed for a 63. What would be the recommended wire size for a 63 amp alternator?

Any info on the correct pulley size? Can someone that has a 450 possibly measure theirs and post here? I'd need the outside diameter as well as the shaft hole size.