'73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

[cordlesscarpenter]

Thanks for trying dtoots! I'm guessing they just drop ship a lot of parts which explains why they never have actual photos of the parts they list online.

Got the last coat of paint on the hoe yesterday, glad that is complete.

Connected everything on the pressure side of hydraulics and tightened down all the brackets, just need to check a few hose clamps on the suction side and she'll be ready for cylinders.

I started running out of daylight so I finished connecting the last of the hoe's hoses and took all the masking off... she's about as pretty as a 50 year old hoe can be, just needs a little lipstick.

I'll need to make brackets for both the seat bottom and the backrest on the hoe but I kinda figured that would be the case.

Today I'll hang the cylinders and see if I can't test out hydraulics.

[Jim B]

Not surprising on Hartville. If you look at their website, they are basically a JD residential dealer lawn equipment and compact tractors, not even an Ag line, much less construction/forestry equipment. Many dealers will sell parts they don't have in stock. I have been told by the guys at a couple JD dealers that their franchises can be pulled if they are found drop shipping parts outside of their authorized territory, as Mother Deere can track those shipments. However, if they have a part in stock, they can sell and ship from their store wherever they want, as Mother Deere doesn't track such sales. So, they can bring a part into their stock, then sell/ship it. I have found some parts for construction/forestry equipment that I couldn't get through my Ag dealer even with the part number. The parts guy told me if the part is used in both green and construction/forestry, they could get/sell it, if it's just used on the construction/forestry side they can't. This may not hold true with all JD dealers but is what I have found from the ones I deal with.

Good job on your machine, it should last you for many years after the rebuild you have done.
Jim

[cordlesscarpenter]

Thanks Jim, that means a lot.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me that Mother Deere doesn't just let their dealers help the customer any and every way they need to... Ag, construction, forestry, nobody cares which is which except them. It's the only way to make sure their equipment out in the real world stays running and their name isn't drug through the mud. Most other brands are the same way (from my experience). It does nothing but frustrate the consumer when they have to jump through hoops to get things fixed or even maintained that theoretically shouldn't be broken (mostly talking about newer equipment but still applies to older machines).

I only had one JD dealer remotely close to me and about a year ago they were told by JD they will carry JD and nothing else or they would be dropped... this place I'm talking about is a family owned & operated place and they told JD where they could stick it. They are now a Kubota dealer. JD will learn their lesson one day but probably not for a good long while lol.

[cordlesscarpenter]

Well, I didn't get the cylinders installed. Started to get it all ready, then ran through all the different steps in my head that I'll need to take to finish putting this beauty back together and realized I can get the boom cylinders on but need to put on the track chains and bolt on all the pads next, then bolt up the grill so I can move the machine forward to mount the loader boom, then the bucket cylinders can be mounted along with the rest of the loader members, etc. I ended up cleaning up all the pin bushings on the loader and and machine in preparations for the next few days.

I got the rest of the backhoe put back together... front and top covers, levers and front hyd line cover. Got the seat bracket mounted to the hoe but decided instead of fabricating brackets to bolt to the seat frame that will accommodate the new seat, I'm going to simply weld in new angle iron for the seat bottom to sit at the correct angle and shape and weld some wings onto the seat frame for the back piece to mount through. Everything will fit perfectly and look as though it was designed like that but I'll have to re-paint it once it's done.

Also replaced every single zerk fitting, bucket to bucket

As you can imagine, tearing down a machine like this over better part of 2 years, even though I'm working on it every day, remembering where you put parts that you removed 2 years ago is not fun, especially when you look at the parts breakdown and the parts don't even look familiar anymore... I basically spent the rest of my day locating all the pins, spacers, special bolts, etc. but finally found it all, it was such a relief to see them but they all need to be cleaned, prepped, painted, etc. so that's on tomorrows docket when I get back from Cincinnati (picking up a shipping container for my move to Montana! Well, going to look at them and pick one out anyways, hopefully I find one I like)

[cordlesscarpenter]

Not tons going on but I have gotten all the pins and bushings mostly ready to mount the cylinders and loader, I still have to paint all the end caps (except the boom cylinders, They are ready to go and will likely go on today). Just waiting for dry weather to paint.

I applied 2 thick coats of Herculiner (truck bed traction rubber) to the diamond plate steps and foot pads on the hoe (same stuff I applied to the foot floor board and entry steps into the crawler and the entire inside of the battery box).

I applied the decals as well... they are not the correct font as the originals nor did fit perfectly on the hydraulic box (length wise they just barely didn't fit the space between the back of the box and the side door) but I cut off the "JD" on the hyd side and they look fine. If you go to replace decals and use the only supplier I could find of 450 decals (found on eBay), just message them first with pics of what your originals look like and send them measurements and they will make you they proper decals, I just didn't think about it at the time honestly.

I'd like to be putting on track chain and bolting up pads but I need the tractor to get them here from the barn that's 500 yds away and it's been thunderstorms yesterday and all day today and it'll just tear up the yard. Looks like the next week (starting tomorrow) will be nice weather though so it's game on soon enough. Until then I'll work on inside stuff. I will also cut a new rubber dust cover for the hoe operating levers (its under a makeshift tarp right now).

I picked up a stick of stout angle iron to make the hoe's seat modifications so I'll likely be working on the fab today and weld it all on tomorrow when it's dry.

Oh, and idle is back at 850

[cordlesscarpenter]

Rain delays are over now which allowed me to get back outside and back to work on the old girl...

I picked up two engine side shields on my NY trip this past winter but like everything else that's 50 years old, they needed some work before going on the machine. I had to remove the lower channel for the sliding door at the oil dipstick area and hammer it straight, same went for the two large panels and the door itself, the panels needed a LOT of hammering but they are both straight now and down to bare metal.

Today also entailed a little fab work for the backhoe seat... I cut and shaped 2 sections of angle iron to weld in between the front and rear bracket (up against the side rails) and cut out a few pieces of flat stock to make the narrow seat bracket back wide enough to accept the bolt pattern on the aftermarket seat back cushion.

Tomorrow's plan is to get all the welding done and everything ready for paint on Monday morning (unless I have enough time left in the day to paint tomorrow), get the two boom cylinders pinned to the loader frame with hoses connected and lift the grill into place.

Tuesday I will be picking up my 20' shipping container from Cincinnati but if there is any daylight left by the time I return, I'll be putting on the new track chains.

[cordlesscarpenter]

Ok gents, not only an update today... I also have questions.

For the update, I busted my ass today and got all the welding done on the backhoe seat as well as the engine side guard, just need to drill some new holes and get it all re-painted tomorrow as scheduled. Then I hooked up and pinned both boom cylinders (not as easy as it sounds) and since there was still lots of sun left I grabbed the tractor from the barn to lift the grill into place and so as to not waste the trip, I loaded up the track chain and brought them with me too. mounted the grill and rolled out the chain and got them positioned under the track frames to lay on the sprocket and use the machine to roll them on. That's where it gets tricky...

After a little adjustment on the gear lever linkage (1,2,3,4 lever), I think I finally have it correct. Then, I adjusted free travel on the clutch pedal to 3 3/4" as per the manual, fired her up (man, she runs so sweet) to run through the gears and make sure the clutch was good, etc.

Well, when I first fire her up, the clutch will disengage allowing me to shift gears but after a minute or two of running through the gears and waking up H-L-R, the clutch stops working and will grind gears if I "try" to shift (i'm gentle at this point as to NOT grind gears). The clutch is new, pressure plate is new, throwout bearing is new, flywheel was ground, the whole assembly was adjusted & massaged (multiple times), then installed on the flywheel (on the engine) and re-adjusted then mounted on the machine. I adjusted free travel on the pedal but have not done the second step which has something to do with plugging in a pressure gauge and adjusting something (need to read the book again for that half of the procedure).

Since the entire trans oil system (including the trans cooler, the entire power steering system and all associated hoses and lines needed fluid, I was expecting a fluid drop as the system fills and it did... I added more HY-GARD back to just below the high mark and cranked her up again (probably took another 2 gallons BTW... this time it allowed me to shift normally but it again clutch started acting up and left me not being able to shift between 1,2,3,4 gears without grinding. H-L-R seems to be working fine but I'm not sure if it works as it should in all gears because I cann't get to those other gears without shutting the machine down and shifting.

So that's my current situation, any thoughts on what is causing the clutch to work at startup just fine and then not later? Will the second half of the clutch adjustment procedure fix this? Hope there is nothing seriously wrong. Both steering clutches and brakes seem to be working nicely and the power steering system feels oh so nice compared to my 450 straight.

Thoughts, suggestions, comments??????

[cordlesscarpenter]

Nobody has any suggestions? I've been dealing with other stuff and haven't been on the dozer build for the last 2 days, should get back on it this afternoon or tomorrow for sure.

If you have any guidance or suggestions I'd love to hear it. I think the problem is on the mechanical side of the trans, not the hydraulic side since that's mainly for the H-L-R and my issue is mechanical engagement with the clutch (at least that's what it feels like).

Darrell

[B Town]

Have you confirmed to shaft coming forward from the H-L-R to the clutch is actually loose and moves forward and back as the clutch pedal is run through the free travel? If the shaft is not moving, the hydraulics continue to work and will not allow the smooth shifting of the mechanical 1,2,3,4 transmission. I assume you checked , confirmed clutch finger height to be within limits.

To get the clutch to work properly, I have read all the procedure must be done.

HTH, Bruce

[cordlesscarpenter]

Bruce,

Thank you for replying, we are racking our brains over here and had not come up with any reasonable explanation for what is happening...

I have not verified this yet, I was under the assumption that the HLR linkage under the left rubber plug ONLY effected the HLR and had nothing to do with the mechanical clutch at all so I wasn't even looking that direction.

To be sure I understand you correctly, can you tell me exactly what you mean by the "shaft coming from the H-L-R to the clutch", where can I see this shaft moving forward and back while running through the free travel? Under the left rubber plug, or maybe the right? I know there is the HLR linkage adjustment under the left rubber plug, is that what you're talking about? Damn this is very frustrating and costing precious time.

Darrell

[B Town]

Let me give a little back story.

My 1978 450C (I have owned for 15+ yrs) started to grind gears 1,2,3,4. It would do it intermittently with no real reason. HLR seemed to work fine. Well eventually like many things that are mechanical the problem worsened, now to include main clutch slipping. So out comes the engine to replace the clutch. I found the clutch case drain hole plugged. Several gallons of rusty water present(in what is supposed to be a dry case.

Cleaned everything, new starter, new rear engine seal, pilot brg etc, etc…..was getting close to picking it together and I noticed the spring that rotates the HLR shaft inside the clutch case was weak. Of course I replaced all components. I gabbed the HLR shaft and realized it was very stiff. There was no way it was moving with the effort of the spring.

Well spring forward many hours of use. The HLR works perfect. Full throttle shifts with just a small tug at you body in the operators seat. The gear change bxt 1,2,3,4 is excellent. I now realize my HLR was not working to it’s maximum ability. The top part of your pedal (3 3/4” free play) is meant to disengage the hydraulic HLR. Then the bottom part of the pedal disengages the mechanical transmission. This is a coordinated symphony starting with the pedal. The clutch adjust sequence must be followed to the letter from left to right from top to bottom.

Look in the left rubber plug. Make sure the HLR shaft moves freely and easily. You may need to remove the nut on the adjustment rod to confirm this movement. Don’t drop the nut

Best regards,

Bruce

[cordlesscarpenter]

Bruce, thanks so much! I will be giving all that a go tomorrow.

I went to town this afternoon to find a gauge but the real tractor and implement shops were all closed and nobody had the right gauge I need to do the pressure check. I have a bunch of gauges but they are all too high or too low of a range.

Tomorrow morning I'll pick one up at my implement shop and get busy getting this old girl straightened out.

As a quick update, In between other stuff, I have finished off the backhoe seat, it looks great, is comfortable and very sturdy, so it is now fully functional. The only thing left to do with the backhoe is to test it out once I drive the tractor up to it.

Once I get the clutch figured out I can finally get the chain and pads on and take her for a spin... then it's the challenge of getting the loader boom on. Everything is ready and on standby for both of those steps but the loader boom is positioned in a tight spot (and backwards) so it'll take some fine redneckery to get it out in the open so I can drive the crawler up to it and lower it into position.

I also made a pretty sweet rubber dust cover for where the hoe's operating levers stick out. Very clean looking and should do a fine job at keeping out the majority of crud.

[cordlesscarpenter]

Ok, I got the gauge and tried the adjustment... first setting the clutch pedal at 3.750" of free travel AND verified that the H-L-R shaft is moving during free travel (at least the part I can see with my inspection mirror duck taped to my finger). Tried screwing in the test line with gauge but the nut on my test line was too close and wouldn't let me screw into the test port far enough (another idiotic engineering design by mother Deerest) but I tried the adjustment anyways. When I slowly let off the clutch, the pressure rose to 145psi so I did like the book said and loosened the nut counterclockwise slowly until I saw the pressure drop to 105 (book says drop it by 30-50 from the pressure observed initially once I let off the clutch, so I dropped it by 40). I then turned the nut in clockwise until it reached a max but it maxed out at only 150psi and it never dropped by 5-10psi like the book said it should. I went ahead and gave it one more full turn from there as per the book and tried shifting 1,2,3,4 gears but it still wants to grind. The pressure remained at about 150psi (should be 170-180). My first inclination was that I was losing pressure from not being able to tighten the test gauge line tight enough so I ran to Lowes for a steel 1/8" NPT extension about 4" or so but all they had was brass in 1/8" so I went and looked at their mini grease guns and they had a 4" long 1/8" NPT steel extension and female adapter in the kit and it even turned out to cost less than the brass fittings so I now have it all hooked up to try again, just stopped for a quick break.

If the pressure doesn't get up to the 180 range I will likely move on to the HLR pressure test a few pages further in the book and increase the pressure by adding shims to the pressure regulator (under the right side rubber plug.

[cordlesscarpenter]

The new gauge connection did help the ease of being able to connect to the test port under the drum plug but I got the same readings as before.

I moved on to step two and long story short, there was already one shim and I ended up adding 3 more but I am now at 180psi at 1,800rpm.

Then I went back to step 1, brought it back down to low idle and re-adjusted the HLR stop nut as before but pressure is still at 130-150 at low idle and still can not shift without grinding gears.

please help if you think of something I'm missing, I'm running out of options.

[cordlesscarpenter]

Bruce, I re-read your last comment about your story and I think I understand the HLR mechanism a little better and will try to remove the nut and see if the HLR shaft going into the transmission is actually moving through it's full range of motion without getting bound up. I wonder if a little penetrating oil will hurt anything, it shouldn't as long as it is pointed in the opposite direction of the clutch. I'll probably remove the nut, washer and spacer, then free the horizontal shaft from the threaded link (that has the spring over it) so that I can freely move the horizontal shaft through it's full range. something else that could be happening (although unlikely) is if the roll pin is sheered where the shaft pins to the arm, if that was sheered off but still kinda sorta sticking, it would give me false readings like I'm experiencing. I doubt that last possibility is a real one but worth a look see